How to deal with a horse that bites?

[beowulf]

[QUOTE=babecakes;9022972]
I think you are talking a whole big huge difference between a horse who is ulcered and doesn’t want to be girthed or sensitive to grooming and a horse who flat out attacks you.* I had one who would come from behind and bite, just me, if I entered her stall or she’d come at me from behind in the turnout.* I had an animal communicator tell me once that she didn’t like my smell. Now I’m not too offended bc she was obviously the only one in 20 yrs of horses. But how I dealt with it was I sold her ass. Full disclosure and no one returned her.[/QUOTE]

And I bet you money the one that flat out wants to attack you is a horse that is defensive because it perceives humans cause it pain.

Every horse I have known to be aggressive to people had something severe bothering them. One was kissing spine. The other was extreme remodeling of the spine due to saddle fit. Another one I knew as passed around as a lesson horse from barn to barn despite physically mauling several workers – later down the line, it was discovered he also had KS. There’s always a reason and it seems to almost always be physical.

Very, very few horses are truly born aggressive or violent – it’s just not biologically economical – an outright aggressive horse is a dead horse in the wild. Horses are shaped by their experiences – give a horse a crappy upbringing and it grows into a crappy horse. It becomes defensive.

I am sure occasionally there is a horse that is “not wired right” but in my experience that is exceedingly, exceedingly rare – and you would be doing a great disservice to a horse by immediately assuming it is just violent over in serious pain and trying to protect itself.

[candyappy]

[QUOTE=Guilherme;9022032]
I once heard John Lyons say that a bit or a kick directed at a human is a horse using it’s “ultimate weapon” and that this means the human should react with massive retaliation.

This bothers some folks but considering that a horse is a one hp engine and can kick a full sized man several feet or crush bone with a bite I’m wondering why anyone would even consider half measures.

Even if the horse is in pain there is no, I say again NO excuse for aggression against a human.

G.[/QUOTE]

In his method of discipline this where you make the horse think he is going to " die" for about 3 seconds and then go back to doing what you were like nothing happened.

No hitting in the face either. I used this on a mule I had and it worked like a charm. His was attitude related where he was just too full of himself. I used a lead rope( no metal) to the front legs and chest, yelling like a crazy person, when he tried to nip while grooming.

He was not tied, it lasted 3 seconds and I promptly brought him back to his spot and continued on like nothing ever happened.

Took 2 times that day and he tried it once more, then never again.

[babecakes]

It was a family horse my sister rode and I never rode or trained her. I mucked and did turn-outs. We raised her so no history of abuse. I rarely even tacked her up. I did occasionally clean the mud off of her in the wash stall. I agree horses associate pain. I always wondered what her problem was.

[Murphy_s_Mom]

Since I still can’t quote…

In response to Guilherme’s post #6 - Murphy was a nasty biter when younger. I tried the John Lyon’s “kill” method and it worked great…until I turned my back. Then he’d nail me.

Met a cowboy who taught me the method Abbie S. describes in post #5. This worked great and is still working almost 20 years later (although he rarely tried to bite after the initial lessons). Timing is critical with this method. And you must leave your temper out of it.

[Foxtrot_s]

Few years back I saw a video of Tom Dorrence working with a horse who was a biter (I don’t think he was a savage horse, tho)…he did the same method where the horse bangs himself, instead of the rider banging the horse…He held up crop and when the horse snaked his head, it collided with the stick and caused his own discomfort instantly. Self punishing.

Tom was not a big man, not a dominating man, just quietly went about his work with horses with perfect timing and no more or no less than required.

I don’t think horses are inherently mean - some like to assert themselves, we have to stay on top and earn the respect.

[Guilherme]

[QUOTE=Foxtrot’s;9023222]
Few years back I saw a video of Tom Dorrence working with a horse who was a biter (I don’t think he was a savage horse, tho)…he did the same method where the horse bangs himself, instead of the rider banging the horse…He held up crop and when the horse snaked his head, it collided with the stick and caused his own discomfort instantly. Self punishing.

Tom was not a big man, not a dominating man, just quietly went about his work with horses with perfect timing and no more or no less than required.

I don’t think horses are inherently mean - some like to assert themselves, we have to stay on top and earn the respect.[/QUOTE]

I remember this. He was working with Larry Mahan (Western riders know who he is ;)). I often used this example with NH extremists who were horrified at the idea of using real force to correct miscreant behavior. When old Mr. Tom applied that cane you could really hear the “whack” loud and clear.

I liked, too, when looked at Larry and reminded him (and the viewer) that he’d not taught the horse not to bite. He taught him not to move his head while being girthed up. This was the beginning of a correction process, not the end!

Pretty smart old dude.

G.

[ladyj79]

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x31ssaa

The ending is especially pertinent to this question.

[no.stirrups]

How I handle biters depends on why they are biting. From the information given, I would put the horse on a Magnesium supplement. Horses deficient in mg have very sensitive skin making grooming and tacking painful. The behavior is just a symptom of a problem; the only way to completely get rid of the symptom is to cure the underlying problem.

[luvmyhackney]

I did a short term lease (2 months) on a horse that would bite, playing almost. He would bite your butt when you picked his feet, brushed him by his face, anyone walked by when he was on cross ties. He was always mouthy and never bit “hard enough to draw blood”, just made you say ouch. He had too much personality. He did love to be curried and when you were on him he was awesome.

I got fed up with the biting and started using a muzzle. He was in his early 20’s I wasn’t going to change him in two months riding him a couple times a week.

[seriously1]

My horse can be bitey. More so in the winter when he has to deal with blankets. Especially when doing up his blankets and his girth.
Recently, I begin putting his head where I wanted it and clickering him when he did it. It made a significant difference.

I will tell you that whacking him or any response along those lines does not make one iota of difference. Sometimes I make him stand with a chain over his nose, that helps some. But clickering and teaching him where I want his head to go - is not only more successful but the energy level is more relaxed.
The challenge seems to be training the other people around the barn - they know he can bite but are having trouble with being quiet and pro-active rather than reactive.

He is also happier if he is permitted to chew and play with certain things.

[Palm_Beach]

THE BLACK STALLION’S FILLY

Anyone remember that book? She would bite while being groomed, so Alec put a hot potato under his shirt sleeve so she bit the hot potato, and she never bit again.

[Wayside]

Hot potato sounds really awkward, but I have been known to strap one of those old rock-hard mushroom looking schooling helmets to my elbow while tacking up a girthy horse. It was helpful, but not a miracle cure.

I got my old TB for free because he’d bitten and cow kicked a few people, and I always just tied him up pretty short so he couldn’t reach me very easily with his teeth, and then kept an eye on his hind legs. After I had him for about a year, he stopped trying.

Another one of my horses had HYPP, and he was always kind of a thin-skinned jerk. For him, it was easier to compromise and find brushes he didn’t hate and keep grooming down to the minimum necessary for health. He was good for baths, thankfully, so he got hosed off a LOT in the summer.

[Ready_To_Riot]

Didn’t read all the posts, but I will first say, if your horse is a biter, you need to j ow your horse. You need to be 50000% sure the horse is not biting to tell your something. If that is undoubtably clear, then do what you gotta do. My mare has been a rebellious biter for the better half of 14 years. Used to be a kicker too. I boughter he straight out of a field at a 11 months old. She hadn’t had a single hand layed on her. Ever. The first day of cleaning her hooves, she dislocated my knee. The second day, she shattered it. She got a few weeks off from hoof picking and when I was well enough to clean hooves, she got the crap kicked out of her. Kicked whatever I could reach without risking another knee surgery. She never kicked again.

Instead she picked up biting. As a 1.5 year old. I hit her back on her muzzle the first time. It worked. For a bit. The biting came back. I tried to be nice, but we had to have a come to Jesus meeting. Maybe I’m an animal abuser, but I have scars. Many scars. (https://m.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10207923613757480&id=1510860127&set=a.10205897430064154.1073741831.1510860127&source=48). I don’t tolerate it anymore. But that’s where knowing what your horse is saying comes into play. I absolutely smacked her on he nose. Until she learned to quit biting. Kind of. She learned that if I do much as blinked in her direction. She better zip her lip. But there are times (like now) where she hurts. If she goes to bite me for touching and “ouch” spot, I do not reprimand her. I stop her, but she isn’t in trouble. I’ll put my hand on her face to stop her from getting to me, or I’ll hold out something for her to bite.

You just have to know your animal. The worst thing you can ever do is reprimand a horse who is in pain

[Posting_Trot]

It’s true that you have to pick and choose your response based on the individual horse. If there’s been a sudden behavior change, then you want to look for whatever set that off.

One important thing to do, though, is to be 100% consistent. Don’t punish her only occasionally for doing it; that just reinforces the bad behavior. Be consistent.

If a horse is really biting, i.e., trying to make contact and do harm, you can try a couple of things. One is to throw your hands up into the air and advance on the horse yelling. (Horse should not be tied or cross-tied for this, or else you’ll have a trainwreck). You don’t have to make contact but you need to be fierce. Make that horse back up out of your space. Then snap a lunge-line on her and send her out for 5 times around a circle each way. Praise her extravagantly for everything she does well. Then bring her back and continue doing whatever it was that elicited the behavior before. Repeat as necessary. No anger involved, just ferocity at the start, and then simply putting the horse to work, and praising her for good behavior.

If the horse is not being truly aggressive, try holding a metal curry comb or looped shedding blade in the hand closest to her head as your working. Keep the hand somewhat outstretched so that if she swings around to tag you, she’ll contact the metal first. And do this consistently.

I’m with Beowolf’s idea that the horse can pin its ears, or swish its tail. But no biting, ever.

[blueskye]

I still have a scar from an incident 20 years ago. A habitual biter grabbed me by the arm and flung me across the aisle. I knew what he was like, I was watching out, I had handled him many other times before without being bitten. But that day he was faster than I was.

Guilherme’d story of striking fear in the colt without actually laying a hand on him is ideal. but certainly requires a knowledgeable horseperson who can read the horse to know when to let up and how to recognize submission.

[whitney159]

[QUOTE=beowulf;9022443]
Indeed, a bite or kick in your direction is a Total Act Of War, and should be treated as such – Massive Retaliation, quick and forceful.

“1 HP Kick Engine”, LOL. Not funny, but that’s a good way to put it.

A horse is allowed to show its’ opinion - that’s ear pinning, tail-swishing, head shaking, maybe the hairy eyeball. A horse is not allowed to show his opinion physically; that’s kicking, biting, lunging.

I don’t tolerate that behavior, at all – you need to act quickly and forcefully. This means you immediately retaliate, with a SHARP voice or growl (“AH!” “NO!” any will do) and a hard rap on the shoulder or whatever the offending body-part was that advanced you (if it was a kick, be careful). I do not think you should hit a horse across the face, as I think that invites the horse to bite you, but you need to tell them that their advances on no uncertain terms are acceptable. You do not shank the #### out of them for 5m straight. The key to getting them to understand the behavior will not be tolerated is to act just as forcefully back, but immediately release/relent when they take a step back/away from you. You are not “punishing” them, you are reprimanding them. Big difference.

.[/QUOTE]

I’m right there with you. I have a mare that came to me with some serious issues, she would snap at you over the stall door when you walked by, attempt to bite and kick when you were around her. She was rarely pleasant. I worked hard to rule out physical issues, and tried hard to catch her being good and encourage nice behavior. I was also incredibly kind to her. Her behavior improved a good bit, and like Beowulf I will allow pinned ears and snaked neck and hairy eyeball just fine from her, bite me? It’s a come to Jesus moment, and so help me, I will come down on a horse hard enough to make them think they are about to actually meet Jesus. But only for that incredibly brief moment-I only allow myself one swing and it is immediate, as in I’m swinging as they are pulling their mouth back. As far as striking the horse on the head, I won’t do it up around the eye or ear, but I do feel the offending teeth are fair game. If I can’t connect before the horse manages to jump back a few feet (because they know they’ve seriously screwed up) the moment is gone. It just makes me more prepared to be faster the next time, and I will set them up opening up the same situation and being ready to strike. I add a nasty “aah, mare!” to the swing, so they get that vocal reminder that they just got off easy.