Not at any “A” shows that I know of. They are all $375 and up. Desert Circuit in California was like $500 per week. Maybe that $300 is for folks showing up Friday afternoon for the Opportunity divisions–still a disgustingly high $$ amount for 2.5 days.
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Just because another discipline also has abuse issues, does not forgive HJ from its sins. Whataboutism is just a deflection. The Olympic disciplines that fit under the USEF umbrella should do better. Way better.
I am very familiar with dressage and HJ. Abuse is baked into both. Most dressage people do not have the same pack mentality as many HJ people and, on balance, are more likely to out each other for abuse. Andreas and Parra can attest to this. The HJ world is more tight-lipped, but the abuse is there, right there if you look. It won’t be a good look for the Olympics once someone really blows it up. The way the world is with current attitudes and technology, it is just a matter of time.
Look in the mirror; look hard. Does your program or trainer blanket drug the hunters with multiple drugs at every show? Do you think it is “industry standard” to use a NSAID, a muscle relaxant and a steroid? Does your barn use something “they can’t test for.” Do you pull shoes for the hack? Do people in your barn ride the lame ones anyway? Do they ride them in several over fence classes week after week until they break? (Serviceably sound just means the horse will still do the job, not that they should be asked to.) Do you let kids and amateurs with no feel ride in draw reins? Do you put in a harsher bit because the rider sucks? Do you show week after week with your horse locked up with no turnout? Do you not even do turnout when you are home? Do you think horses have “tantrums” and need “lickings”? If you are not guilty of these things, can you go to a show and look at the person to the left and the person to the right of you and not see these sins? If you can’t, you are either blind or your eyes are closed.
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Kitty cat on the keyboard? 
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I don’t think it’s “whataboutism” necessarily, rather, it is additional substantiation that long term abuse has run rampant in equestrian disciplines, and that the people who truly protect their horse’s welfare are tired of those that abuse them. It doesn’t matter if it’s dressage, HJ, WP, big lick, etc. we are tired of the abusive and cruel techniques used in all horses in any discipline. And we are tired of the ridiculous arguments. The WP horse was not bred to move sideways, the dressage horse may have nice gaits, but they do not naturally move like a gaited horse. HJ should not need medication. You get the point.
And all of these things are so normalized that it takes other equestrians and the public to speak up. The horses cannot speak for themselves.
Just as HJ people should select their trainers wisely, it is clear this applies to ANY discipline. I’ve had friends brag all over FB about their purchases from Helgstrand. They’ve been dark since the news broke. They may not have had their horse in training there, but they still funded the factory. ANYONE who does business with people like this are supporting it. Anyone who sees a horse drop ringside at a show (which has happened at least twice in the past year) and doesn’t report it is supporting it. Anyone who allows a trainer to throw a leg over a 2 YO and force it to move in ways that cause long term damage is condoning it. It’s not just HJ. It’s pretty much someone in every discipline. And THAT is what we are tired of. The ones who are raising the concerns over and over and OVER AGAIN already have our horses in programs where their welfare comes first. If drawing attention to the issue collectively finally brings about change, then so be it.
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Thank you.
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Was going to say something about blanket generalities and the belief that Dressage is somewhat of a sanctuary as a far as abusive practices. Then realized it would be a repeat of most of what you claimed a number of times in a 450 post thread last summer so there was no point going down that rabbit hole again.
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Yeah the low key superiority rubbed me the wrong way too. Poor horsemanship is rampant everywhere there is money and prestige to be had - it’s a bit telling that the hottest controversies right now are in dressage. Add that Parra at least has been known to be doing this for a decade, so dressage people aren’t calling out abuse any more often than other disciplines.
ETA: I think people certainly ARE fed up with the broken system - the more you know the more you wonder where the line is. If the “winning ride” can be produced through artificial and abusive methods, then maybe it shouldn’t be the “winning ride”. Unfortunately people will lose sight of their priorities in pursuit of winning, so why can’t we make the judging and the rules of the subjective disciplines more horse friendly? Why continue to reward BTV and leg flinging, dropped backed horses when the rules say otherwise??
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Same for the hunters: can we stop rewarding the dead eyed robot? I think it’s getting better from what I’m seeing, but what about the judges still pinning blatantly lame horses? Why can’t soundness be a requirement for equitation?
Etc etc. I guess what this ramble is trying to say is that until we have judging that rewards good horsemanship, we will continue to see abusive method to get those crazy gaits, drugs to quiet them down, LTD and sideways horses in rail classes because that’s what is WINNING
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This is so very true. I agree 100 percent. And how does that change? If a judge speaks up, does he or she get asked back to judge? I really don’t know the answer to that….
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A crop/whip should be used as an extension of your hand. They aren’t for “beating” a horse.
I hope they do not ban a useful tool because some folks use it for discipline.
I’m not sure how driving would work without the use of a whip for signals.
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This! How are you going to police “one whip strike per day/round/etc” when I use a dressage whip like one would use a spur? As a light reinforcement of my leg? Now if I’m hauling off and leaving welts behind or clearly hitting in anger that’s one thing - but to ban whips is to misunderstand their PROPER use.
Same with a lunge whip. Sure some horses can lunge themselves but I like to let mine stretch their legs at the trot on show days - if I don’t have a whip they’re doing tiny circles around me. The lunge whip is an arm extension to make my directions clear and keep some distance between me and the horse if needed.
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Realistically they can effectively comply with the rule and still stop most people from using outside vendors since they are allowed to prohibit outside deliveries.
I can (and do) bring enough hay, grain and bedding for my 5 day stays at my events. It’s not easy and due entirely to having an easy keeper, but doable. Even so, I gave up on bringing shavings so I can get the stall bedded and pony out of the trailer quickly after 7 hours shipping.
But if you are at a show for 2 weeks or you’re a trainer arranging for 3+horses, you are locked in to the in house racket
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Did it though?
Let me ask you this- have you checked the drug infractions for the last 10 years (the people who actually got caught) and noted what percent of them are HJ people? Spoiler alert- it is most of them, and very rarely a dressage person.
Andreas and Cesar were called out by dressage people. Who is calling out the abusers of HJ? The HJ culture has a better handle on keeping people quiet. The fact that so many of the participants are kids, so many of the parents don’t know horses, so many of trainers want to keep it that way, contributes to this.
Dressage also called out itself for Rolkur. I see people at HJ shows riding horses in torture contraptions like draw reins and an elevator bit, or some moron who sucks jumping in draw reins. The go to for so many trainers is to put on a harsher bit if the rider doesn’t have the skills to ride the horse properly. Of course, we have people who have no business riding in a double, showing FEI, but they can’t run around at second level like that. Any dippity doo dah in the low jumpers can ride in a bit they should not be able to ride on the flat in.
Also, at least in dressage the gaits matter. Sure, plenty of people ride and show lame horses. Still, you don’t see a lot of super lame horses going up the levels because they score crappy. But, and don’t tell me this is not the case, a lame horse can still deliver a good score in a medal final. The videos are on USEF Network to prove this.
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Clearly dressage is not a sanctuary against abuse. Current events just tell us that dressage abusers are just more likely to get exposed. I say expose all of them dressage, HJ or whomever. Where are the videos from working students at HJ barns that show the abuse? I am waiting for someone with the balls to blow it up. Remember the Katie Prudent thing was blown up by someone from Holland, not a HJ person.
And Andy Kocher was “caught” by a French equestrian magazine which resulted in the FEI taking action and banning him for 10 years. Where was USJHA in the many years he was jumping before the ban?
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A rule limiting to one “use” of the whip is reactionary and poorly designed, and also seems like it is saying that using the whip in any way is inherently bad for the horse and must be severely limited… so by that logic why not ban it altogether.
If I’m using a whip as a reinforcement of leg aids, I’ll use my leg first … and if the horse doesn’t respond, give a light tap with the whip, then a firmer one until I have the horse’s attention and he moves back up in front of my leg. This isn’t abusive, and IMO is kinder than going straight to a hard smack if the horse just needs a little reminder … but if you’re only allowed the one “use” you’re essentially required to skip any gentle reminders and go straight to “get your butt moving now” mode.
Abuse has much less to do with the number of times the whip touches the horse and much more to do with how hard it is used and the context in which it occurs.
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Exactly. Might as well ban the whip entirely if we are going to make rules based on misunderstanding of the correct uses of equipment (see the Baucher debacle).
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Noseband rule proposal is also a bit much. Sure for that level, do the noseband tightness checks. But to ban all sorts of nosebands because they have the potential to be put on too tightly?
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I’ve seen and heard of people using crank nosebands because the padding comes built in. Just because it’s called a “crank” doesn’t mean you have to crank it.
I’d certainly like to see a tightness rule enforced, however.
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If said judge is known to have a different viewpoint and has spoken up? They would not have been hired in the first place. Shows have become big business and brand loyalty is as important there as in most others. Customer acquisition and retention are as important to the big show management as it is anywhere else. You reward your best customers, those who contribute the most to your bottom line. Unfortunate but it is what it is. Its business.
Trainer bringing 30 horses to a 3 week circuit, booking 36 stalls at 300 a week for 15 owners, entering…oh…say 5 classes a week each? Thats a lot of money. Add shavings and feed from show contracted vendor for 21 days, mandatory night watch, multiple additional fees? Do the math. Management needs to keep that trainer coming back. Some of these trainers are the Good Old Boys and use their influence on show managers. In defense of the managers, the costs to run these shows have skyrocketed.
Like to take a moment here to defend the many ethical, hard working judges out there. Remember, they can only pick a winner from the horses in front of them and thats on a curve, not against a set standard. If the “robot” gets around better, no missed distances, rubs, ticks, swaps at the base and no missed changes and the other entries all have flaws? Judge will pin the class they watched. Maybe they deduct a bit for “ dull” but that horse was still the best of what they watched. They can only work with what they have.
One other thing, have to understand what USHJA and USEF are and what they are not. They are private, members only sports clubs operated by members for members. Pay to play. They only preside over shows that pay for their approval. Their rules only apply to their recognized shows. Most shows are held on privately held, leased property they have no control over on non show days. Even if the member horses and trainers remaining on the property are also competing in those shows
What USEF and USHJA are not is law enforcement. No police powers. No subpoena power, no ability to obtain search warrants, no right to visit trainer home barns or even be on the property. Individual members can instigate a civil action and/or file criminal charges, believe they can join or support those. But its all about hard proof and that is difficult plus lawyers get really expensive…which GOB client have access to and can afford, or client is one.
IMO SOL is the best shot at changing some of this. If nothing else, take the stigma off those who do speak up.
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