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How would you have disciplined this "bratty" pony?

Endurance and Trail Riding
#21

Once you’ve already fallen off, here’s what you do:

Calmly walk up to the pony without holding a grudge and catch it.

Calmly lead him back to the mounting block or a place where you can get back on. Do not act pissed or get after him as it will only scare him and that sounds like it is what caused the second episode with the pony. Either your daughter was getting pissy with him or someone who owned him before taught him he would get his @ss beat.

Get back on.

Carry on.
To school the pony, do exactly what you were doing before and THAT is the place where you school the behavior.

I walked this talk two days ago. A four year old got playful in a lead change going away from a jump and sent me absolutely unceremoniously sailing. He did a surprised little courtesy circle, and trotted right back to me. I took the reins, quietly led him back to the mounting block, hopped on, gave him his customary pat for standing well at the block, promptly picked up a nice little canter, and headed immediately back to the same jump, jumped it, and without being rough or holding a grudge halted on the back side, softly backed two steps, patted him for halting and backing well, and then did the whole thing a couple more times before putting him away.

The part where I trained him to try to contain his youthful exuberance a little more was where we quietly halted and backed after the jump. That was where I said, “BooBoo, you need to stay focused a little better after the jumps, ok?” THAT was the training moment.

Do not set up the appurtenant training moment for disaster by getting after a horse on the ground before you get to the training moment. Get to the real training moment as quietly, smoothly and undramatically as you can so the horse has half a (calm, quiet) brain to LISTEN to the training moment when it occurs.

They are just horses.
Getting their @ss beat from the ground doesn’t teach them anything.
Getting back to WHERE THE PROBLEM OCCURRED and quietly showing them what you DO want them to do does.

And when he does it well again, pat him and put him back in his house.

#22

[QUOTE=meupatdoes;4553595]
Once you’ve already fallen off, here’s what you do:

Calmly walk up to the pony without holding a grudge and catch it.

Calmly lead him back to the mounting block or a place where you can get back on. Do not act pissed or get after him as it will only scare him and that sounds like it is what caused the second episode with the pony. Either your daughter was getting pissy with him or someone who owned him before taught him he would get his @ss beat.

Get back on.

Carry on.
To school the pony, do exactly what you were doing before and THAT is the place where you school the behavior.

I walked this talk two days ago. A four year old got playful in a lead change going away from a jump and sent me absolutely unceremoniously sailing. He did a surprised little courtesy circle, and trotted right back to me. I took the reins, quietly led him back to the mounting block, hopped on, gave him his customary pat for standing well at the block, promptly picked up a nice little canter, and headed immediately back to the same jump, jumped it, and without being rough or holding a grudge halted on the back side, softly backed two steps, patted him for halting and backing well, and then did the whole thing a couple more times before putting him away.

The part where I trained him to try to contain his youthful exuberance a little more was where we quietly halted and backed after the jump. That was where I said, “BooBoo, you need to stay focused a little better after the jumps, ok?” THAT was the training moment.

Do not set up the appurtenant training moment for disaster by getting after a horse on the ground before you get to the training moment. Get to the real training moment as quietly, smoothly and undramatically as you can so the horse has half a (calm, quiet) brain to LISTEN to the training moment when it occurs.

They are just horses.
Getting their @ss beat from the ground doesn’t teach them anything.
Getting back to WHERE THE PROBLEM OCCURRED and quietly showing them what you DO want them to do does.

And when he does it well again, pat him and put him back in his house.[/QUOTE]

Your post is one of the best explained posts I’ve seen on this subject. Also, something I’ve seen missing on quite few training posts, I’ve found that talking to the horse (as you said) and telling him what he did wrong, he’ll ‘usually’ respond very nicely. Just like you were talking to another human. Horses ‘get it’. It might have to do with body language too.

#23

[QUOTE=Hip;4553885]
Your post is one of the best explained posts I’ve seen on this subject. Also, something I’ve seen missing on quite few training posts, I’ve found that talking to the horse (as you said) and telling him what he did wrong, he’ll ‘usually’ respond very nicely. Just like you were talking to another human. Horses ‘get it’. It might have to do with body language too.[/QUOTE]

Agreed- great post :cool:

#24

[QUOTE=meupatdoes;4553595]
He did a surprised little courtesy circle, and trotted right back to me. [/QUOTE]

This made me laugh. When I take a dirt nap, my horse always tears off like a race horse breaking through the gate. Then I have to get up and yell, “Where are you going?!” and she stops, turns around, looks bewildered, and comes back. I don’t know what will happen if I ever get knocked cold because she might keep right on running to the next state over.

So when she comes back… I calmly pick up the reins, get to where I can mount up safely, and off we go again.
I think if you don’t get back on, you’re not only training the horse that this behavior gets them out of work, you’re also training yourself that it’s easier to walk away from the situation.
I don’t know about other people, but I tend to over think when “stuff happens” and if I don’t get right back on and deal with it, it festers. I start thinking about “next time” and running all the different possible outcomes around in my head until I don’t want to ride at all.
So I suck it up and get back on like nothing happened. That’s really all you can do.

#25

Three-second Rule

I follow John Lyon’s guide on discipline. Somewhere he states that when a horse misbehaves (real misbehavior, not a spook), you have three seconds to kill him. If you can’t apply punishment within three seconds, you’ve lost your chance. You have up to three seconds to start the discipline, and then you stop within the three seconds, even if you are still angry. Keep in mind, that is my take on what he said. Without a direct quote, I could be grossly misrepresenting John Lyon’s intent.

Following the three-second rule works for me and the horses I encounter. They respect rather than fear me.

This is also why I don’t carry a gun. I follow the three-second rule, and there were times when I would have shot my former horse in the head when he was acting up on the trail.

I add my own rule to this in that whatever discipline you use must be appropriate in type and intensity to the offense. I DO NOT punish when a horse spooks. Not ever. I don’t even discipline for bucking unless it is prolonged and the horse is really trying to get me off. IOW, discipline should be fair and appropriate, but the 3-second rule helps to put a start and end time on it so I do not abuse my horse in a fit of temper.

In the case of a fallen or injured rider, take care of the rider first. Disciplining the horse at that point is inappropriate. Get somebody who can ride the horse through the misbehavior and add work, not punishment.

p.s. When I’m trimming a horse who is misbehaving persistently, and I can feel myself getting angry, I’ll take him in hand and back him up. This takes a lot more work for him than for me. It has the dual benefit of tiring him out and establishing my dominance without hitting or otherwise scaring the horse. I back them up, ask them to move forward, repeat, until my temper is cooled and the horse is showing me an appropriately submissive attitude (head lower, backing up immediately when asked, coming forward when asked, stopping when I stop, etc.). If my daughter was okay following such a fall, I might have spent some time backing the horse up or doing other in-hand work to establish that he works for humans, not the other way around.

#26

[QUOTE=busterwells;4479352]
I need some advice on how “I should have disciplined” our pony on this particular trail ride. I will try to make a long story short.

5 of us go out on trail, including my daughter on our Pony of America. After a nice 30 minute ride. My daughter and my friend decide they are going to separate and canter around a big oval trail around a pond and the other 3 of us decide to wait at on side of the pond. I guess some brush had overgrown on this trail and they were cantering and had to zig zag while cantering and our POA decides to buck and throw my daughter off (she is bareback) in the field. I go and help my daughter brush herself off as my friend rounds up our pony. I then tell my daughter she needs to get back on and ride her back to the barn. As she tries to remount ( she was bareback so she usually takes a small leap and throws her leg over while grabbing the mane) the pony then rears up and then bucks and kicks out throwing my daughter on the ground again. Well by the time I get off my horse and calm my daughter down I am wondering if the horse is going to know what I am disciplining her for and I didn’t quite know what to do? My daughter was riding in short contest reins so it would have been hard to lunge in circles. I don’t want the pony to think this is okay behavior , but I guess I froze, not knowing what do. My daughter did get back on with my help and rode a 1/2 mile back to the barn. Hmmm, I guess I need to find out what would have been the correct reaction from me in case our pony acts like a “freak” again.[/QUOTE]

  1. Your daughter should learn to mount more gently if she is planning to go around riding bareback. Not that I haven’t been guilty of worse, myself, but IMO it’s totally legitimate for a horse to be freaked out if someone is leaping onto their back and pulling themselves on by their mane.

  2. Again, IMO, if you’re riding bareback out on trail you kind of have to expect that you will fall off at some point. Horses spook, terrain gets rough, stuff happens, and there’s less margin for error for staying on. If it were me riding around bareback cross-country and I fell off, no matter what the horse did, I’d be kicking myself for goofing off and taking risks. Not considering it an important training issue.

  3. For discipline, I think you did the right thing. Your daughter getting back on and riding home was plenty discipline enough. Personally, I never ever discipline my mount when I fall off, because the LAST thing I want is a horse that gallops off into the sunset when I hit the ground because the horse is afraid I’m going to smack it around! Plus what everyone else has said about the “3 second rule,” appropriate timing, etc.

  4. I don’t think we have to take every possible safety measure every time we ride, but we DO have to assume the risks. So if your daughter wants to gallop around a field, bareback, on a pony that’s known to buck, then that’s fine! But you also have to expect that the pony might buck, and your daughter might fall off. Can’t take one without the other! Likewise, if you’re getting on bareback without a mounting block, if you’re not well-practiced at doing it gently, then you have to accept the risk that you’re going to freak the pony out when you struggle to get on.

#27

I wouldn’t say it was being a “bratty” pony…it was just being a pony. Your daughter needs to learn to feel a buck coming…and how to stop it before it happens.

But after she has hit the ground…there is no disciplining.

Next time, give her a leg up. The pony was either too lit up from the canter/being loose for your daughter to safely mount from the ground…or your daughter caught her in the mouth with the reins while mounting (since you said she reared…that usually tells me some one pulled on them).

Next time…have a hand on the pony and give your daughter a leg up. Jumping up from the ground is VERY hard on their backs…and very few tense lit up ponies are going to stand quietly for it!

#28

Sorry about your POA being a butthead.
I like the advise meupatdoes wrote along with some of the other posts. Sounds like one I would have done some calm “wet saddle blanket” work with immediately with an adult and then put your child back on (assuming the child cannot do the WSB circle cantering). I cannot emphasize more that it should only be done with a calm, level head and in a matter of fact way.

I learned to ride on a pony that did everything in the book to get the rider off her back. Taking off was the worst of them. She did not really buck, but would set her head and just RUN. Then she’d take a quick hop to the side or run you against a tree to try to remove the kids. Even with a kimberwicke, she did this.
This little gal taught me posture, grip, patience (it was a drag to have to walk all the way home on those trails or roads!!) and most of all how to ride by feel which is priceless to me as I am tuned into feeling what the pony will do before they do it by nature now.
My favorite was to ride and train is still bareback, but now I use a Best Friend pad (hey, I’m older and have to do my own laundry now!!).
I like the advise meupatdoes wrote along with some of the other posts.

#29

[QUOTE=Beverley;4553112]
Oh, the longwinded recap of prior threads, presented in a manner that suggests something ‘bad’ about the poster, and ending with:

“Really NOT the appropriate horse for a young kid to be riding bareback, Mom!”

Sure doesn’t come across as an effort to be helpful.

You are quite correct that you are not the only one who stated disapproval of a Mom ‘allowing’ her daughter to ride a horse under a given set of circumstances. BS, I say, just another example of the helicopter parenting so prevalent these days. All horses are potentially dangerous, one accepts risks riding any of them. I say good for Busterwells for wanting to get to the bottom of the pony’s issue so her daughter can enjoy her. If you’re going to condemn a parent for letting a kid ride a horse that ‘might’ buck or otherwise misbehave- well, gee, guess we better outlaw kids from from riding, huh? I wonder if today’s riding child gets to have any fun at all- I suppose some of y’all would be horrified that us ‘barn rats’ back in the 60s rode all sorts of different horses, all over the place, all day long, without a speck of adult supervision, and, gasp, no hard hats or safety vests. What fun it was.[/QUOTE]

For me it was the late 70’s and the 80’s. My parents had NO IDEA what I rode and what I did. helmets were unheard of if you weren’t showing. It was a blast, i could ride anything I got on and I wouldn’t change it for the world.

#30

Have you checked the pony for back pain?

#31

For all the people who are busting me for being so mean and non-helpful, it might be enlightening for you to go read through ALL busterwells old posts on this mare.

She was sent to a trainer who had actually made her WORSE – turned her into a bucking fiend – and the OP thought she was ruined for sure.

Then finally (on the urging of many COTH posters) had the mare worked on by a chiropractor, if I recall correctly, and that helped alot.

This pony has had issues for a while – both physical and other.

I rode a snotty horse when I was a kid, too – a mare that ran away from me constantly. My parents didn’t care - -they didn’t know.

If you want to put your kid on that sort of horse, bully for you! But don’t get ticked off when the horse (or pony) lawn darts the kid. It’s not the pony OR the kid’s fault…it’s the parents allowing for this combo.

Yes, these kind of pony’s can teach you alot. They can also hurt you or sour you on horses/riding all together. It depends on the parties involved.

But my point is that none of this is NEW for this pony and the OP doesn’t seem to have learned much from the first several experiences…

#32

And my point is, so what? The OP simply asked, seemingly in the spirit of learning and getting input from more knowledgeable folks (though such input should always be taken with a grain of salt on a forum like this!) about appropriate discipline for a specific circumstance. The OP did NOT ask ‘should my daughter ride this pony?’ The OP did NOT ask for your unilateral judgment on ‘the body’ of her posts- which frankly, continue to come across as a big ‘tsk tsk’ from you to the poster, how dare she start all these threads seeking advice?

As you noted earlier- when one posts in these parts, one is fair game for whatever response anyone wants to give. That goes for the OP- and it goes for you, too!:slight_smile:

#33

Touche!

#34

Yes fair game, but really the same sort of problems come up time and time again, often with the same helpful people rushing in with the same solutions. Then a few months later there’s another post with a variation of the original problem.
Beverley, you are allowing yourself to get off topic :slight_smile:

#35

Indeed – and in the “spirit of learning” she doesn’t seem to “get” that the pony is having the same problem over and over again, does she?

It seems you have an issue with me, so Life goes on, doesn’t it? And I can’t help but notice that the OP is no where to be found on any of these well meaning posts, so I guess maybe she doesn’t quite have the spirit of learning you suggest.

My sympathy is always with the horse, and if you’d be acquainted with the prior posts (but, “so what?” you say…) you would know this is not a new problem.

And I agree, you really have gotten off topic…if you don’t like my advise or postings I strongly urge you to simply not read them.

We all certainly have those options, don’t we?:wink:

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