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HSI RID stallions--interesting eye candy

Sport Horse Breeding
#1

Here are the new stallions approved for 2010"
http://www.horsesportireland.ie/stallions/hsi-stallions-inspections-2010.6928.html
And here are the new ones for 2011:
http://www.horsesportireland.ie/stallions/hsi-stallion-inspection-results-2011.9937.html

The top two on the 2011 results are both 3 years old and are very different phenotypes. One looks like a plow horse and the other looks like a riding horse. To my eye, there is a huge variety in appearance and conformation among the approved stallions from both years…

Also to my eye, a lot have short, upright pasterns, especially for their bulk. Is ringbone much of a problem in RIDs?

One of the 2010 stallions was bred in the US and exported back. It’s Killinick Bouncer.

Kind of makes you wonder if the Irish RID registry has a goal other than preserving the ID as a breed.

#2

Killinick Bouncer was owned at foaling by an Amercan but he never left Ireland, I am pretty sure.

First when looking at these pictures you need to realize that the Irish are some of the worst picture takers of horses conformation in the free world…don’t know why but it is very unfair to the Irish Draights to be at the mercy of these photos. You should try buying a horse from the Irish over the internet. Photos and videos are usually terrible.
http://www.donedeal.ie/find/horses/for-sale/Ireland/Irish%20Draught
any way you also need to realize you are looking at pretty much unclipped feathers. They are required to present for inspection with the feathers but it makes them look like they have more bone and it makes their pasterns look short and stubby and straight. And no they don’t have any more tendency that any other sport horse breed to have ringbone.

The unclipped part has a purpose, though I personally think it leads to kidding oneself about the presence of substantial bone. The amount and texture of the feather(and distribution of white markings as well) are historically tell tales of the presence of “Clyde” blood in the Irish Draught herd. I have seen a mare who obviously by the type of feather she had clearly had “clyde” blood but you could also see other conformation traits of Clyde or Shire blood. Irish frmers have a LOT of bias against Clyde white as well…it’s a problem because IDs have lots of regular old sabinos and rabicanos, they sold a lot of these to the US…but we like white and are interested in the genetics of the issue.

The pasterns can be shorter and more upright when young but as the body size increases as they marture it looks in proportion and the angle changes.

For me and many others the proper Irish Draught should be closer to having 10 inches of bone 25.4 cm. There were ID with 11 inches of bone not so long ago…short shinned even very short shinned was another important distinction in the breed. You can see from these stallions they are rapidly loosing bone in Ireland. It is better in Great Britain and America but Ireland has only a few stallions with 10 inches of bone left. So these stallions who have passed in Ireland are a sad fact for many of us. Happily there is more pedigree diversity that 15 years ago but they are being turned into warmbloods as they go. PatO

#3

As long as you’re here, who is Huntingfield? Several stallions have that prefix, including one named Huntingfield Rebel who seems to have been very popular recently.

I think Eastern Hero is lovely, but not at all my idea of a RID.

#4

I am sorry I have the owners of the Huntingfield prefix wacking around in my head but cant catch it. perhaps Liz will post. They have bred many very fine stallions from rare sock to include.
Huntingfield Proud Tim in Montana www.dandelionfarm.com
and Huntingfield Heathcliff
http://www.irishdraught.ie/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=229&Itemid=352
PatO

#5

Suma Stud in County Meath owned and developed Huntingfield’s Rebel, a riding type RID stallion that is very well known in Ireland. I saw him in Ireland in 2003 and he had lovely conformation and good bone. Suma was closing then and before they did, they were breeding more warmblood and less Irish Draught.

#6

Another stallion that is an excellent example of RID is Mountain Pearl in County Sligo. His RID son Bridon Beale Street stands in California. He is competing prelim and intermediate eventing with good results.

#7

The pics are pretty bad. Almost all of them are leaning forward, which will make any horse look like it has short, upright pasterns. That combined with some feathering can account for what you are seeing.

Just to add-
The Irish are not supposed to clip the feathering off for shows, because the judges want to be able to see how much of it there is. It is an undesired trait, however, some feathering is acceptable. They banned the crossing of the Irish with the Clyde because they were hurting the Draughts confo. Clydes were bred to pull and their hocks and lower hind legs are set close together… not a good thing for the IDs.

To be registered, they are not supposed to be any color other than solid. As long as they are solid, it doesn’t matter what color they are. Strangely though, I have seen some IDSHs that were colored and papered. As for markings, they are not supposed to have white above the knees or hocks. They can have stars, stripes, snips, blazes, etc., but no excessive white, or bald faces (though I’ve seen this too).

The Irish breeders do care about more than just preserving the ID at all cost. After all, why would you want to preserve something that’s not fantastic and doesn’t have something to offer? There are several IDs competing in upper level, open shows nowadays, at least in the US. The quality of the IDs in the US is also fantastic, so much so that they are exporting stallions back to Ireland.

#8

Killinick Bouncer and the horse directly above or below him are both gray, but both certainly look to be bald-faced.

It’s not that the ID is not worth preserving, because, of course it is; but the wide variety in looks and conformation in the newly approved stallions in Ireland is what motivated my comment. There’s very little consistency in type; and some only scraped in because of their ancestors. If you’re saving a rare breed, you want to have as much genetic diversity as possible for the future; but if you’re trying to improve future generations through inspections of breeding animals, you want to cull the less than sterling specimens.

#9

I think that if you were there and met the stallions they would seem more similar because or their minds and manner and the question of their Irish Draughtness would be less in question.

However, you hit on the big reason many of us preservationists just grit and git on with it. You have to have diversity. Even to have many King of Diamond sons was bad but then 4 of the major KOD sons were full brothers Kildalton Countess was the dam of 4 sons used heavily then another approved son by Merry Gold. Then another 3 famous KOD sons from Gowran Betty. There has been more diversity in the last few years but the purpose of the bonus for pedigree was to keep the warmblood trend in the ID from overwhelming the more traditional lines…then they gave the bonus for stallions THEY wanted like Clover Hill instead of lines to bring in diversity.

It is a battle for substance, soundness and sanity. They want jump alone…not even dressage with its movement and trainablity. The longer I am involved with Irish Draughts and the more I see…there IS a diversity of type and always has been…there is though a uniformity of temperament because io a universality of living and using the Irish Draught in rural Ireland. For sure the Irish Draught is a temperament breed regardless of the lack or presence of substance.

I don’t know how hard to cry when a TB they approve might have more bone than the Irish Draught they approve…that occured last year. THAT’S a shame to the HSI.

On the other hand…you can take the breed and select out what you want to breed and you are getting your dreeam AND preserving a breed…every Irish Draught is rare. If it is warmblood type and KOD on Cloverhill with Ben Purple it is still rare and still preservation. No Grand Pubbah in Germany will tell you that what you want will not be allowed to be a stallion. It seems any correct athletic Irish Draught of any type will be approved…as long as it jumps. PatO

#10

Genetic diversity is important, but greatness doesn’t come out of nowhere! I think we are going to see more Irish horses in the near future, both in the mainstream and in general. I also think we will see more, nice outcrosses in the future as well (that could be wishful thinking), but breeders are certainly aware of the need for valuable outcrosses.

Yes, there are types within the breed, but as long as they have correct confo, that famous temperament, rideability, and a good jump on them, I don’t see the problem with having types within the breed.

The comment about a thoroughbred having more bone than an ID is rather depressing! I will say that I don’t think an RID should ever have less than 8in of bone. To me 8in of bone would be a lite RID. As far as athleticism, all IDs should be athletic to a degree, even the heavy ones, that’s part of what separates them from draft horses.

#11

And then there is the political issue. There are 3 groups involved and they don’t always play together nicely. :eek:

HSI exists to promote Irish horses, no matter the breed. They are not all that interested in preserving the traditional ID. They want a competitive sport horse NOW. They are not as much looking at a stallion to see if he could produce a competitive sport horse.

And then there are two ID breeder groups fighting for control. They have at least some interest in preserving the traditional ID breed, (more or less) true to the traditional standard with less emphasis on performance but who can produce performance offspring.

Then throw the Irish economic woes into the mix…

#12

I know nothing about RID horses, but looking at the stallion pictures I can’t get over the different types and poor conformations.

Case in point - http://www.horsesportireland.ie/_fileupload/Stallion_Inspection_Results_2011/Irish_Sport_Horse_Studbook/ISH_Stormhill_Miller_result_06.05.11.pdf
How can a horse like this be approved? And the judges’ remarks start with “attractive color”?? It’s not just a dipped back, the horse is a foot taller behind than in front! And his stud fee is 500 Euros! :eek:

I guess I just don’t get it…

#13

Sounds much like the KWPN and the Gelderlander people. Almost identical, in fact.

[QUOTE=carolprudm;5620397]
And then there is the political issue. There are 3 groups involved and they don’t always play together nicely. :eek:

HSI exists to promote Irish horses, no matter the breed. They are not all that interested in preserving the traditional ID. They want a competitive sport horse NOW. They are not as much looking at a stallion to see if he could produce a competitive sport horse.

And then there are two ID breeder groups fighting for control. They have at least some interest in preserving the traditional ID breed, (more or less) true to the traditional standard with less emphasis on performance but who can produce performance offspring.

Then throw the Irish economic woes into the mix…[/QUOTE]

#14

[QUOTE=siegi b.;5620403]
Case in point - http://www.horsesportireland.ie/_fileupload/Stallion_Inspection_Results_2011/Irish_Sport_Horse_Studbook/ISH_Stormhill_Miller_result_06.05.11.pdf[/QUOTE]

Wow. Icky. All I can say is :eek:

#15

ring bone and side bone.

#16

HUH?

#17

Vineyridge - I usually respect your opinions but think you’re a little off here…:yes:

The KWPN does look for stallions that can produce top sport horses (at least last time I checked), and the Gelders horse has a book within the KWPN called the basic horse book. I know, I have a mare registered with them and she is a Ster Preferent mare!

Just saying… :slight_smile:

#18

Darned if I know either but please note that he is a TB, NOT Irish Draught

Reading further down the page he is considered to be a good producer.

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=381389

#19

Actually I really am ignorant. I was just going by some of the posts that were made here a year or two ago by a very, very strong Dutch partisan of the Gelderlander whose name, IIRC, was Anton (?). IIRC, he expressed strong dissatisfaction with the KWPN handling of their “pure” Gelderlander stock and posted about a new registry or procedures just for Gelderlanders to preserve them from being submerged as a breed.

Not saying that the KWPN doesn’t have really high stallion qualifications, because, of course, they do–and the qualifications are undoubtedly applied across the board. It was the statement that there are purists in Ireland who are very unhappy with the HSI treatment of the ID that called up Anton’s posts about the Gelders.

He might well be a minority of one, though. But he did seem rational.

[QUOTE=siegi b.;5620677]
Vineyridge - I usually respect your opinions but think you’re a little off here…:yes:

The KWPN does look for stallions that can produce top sport horses (at least last time I checked), and the Gelders horse has a book within the KWPN called the basic horse book. I know, I have a mare registered with them and she is a Ster Preferent mare!

Just saying… :)[/QUOTE]

#20

Did you notice that the horse you were commenting on was not an ID but a TB?

Just saying…

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