So the article basically supported what most of us said: you are best following the current trends, not when it comes ot brands (because that is just a ridiculous statement…who can even tell from across the ring?), but when it comes to ‘traditional’ or perhaps ‘currently acceptable’ it’s best to stay within the framework. That doesn’t mean you have to have a D-ring or a standing martingale, but it does mean that there is a range of things to stick within that are considered traditional or acceptable. How much it affects score is up to the particular judge…but I’m not going to play the game and hope the judge I’m showing under is okay with whatever I choose to do even if it’s not against the rules. If it might become a note on the judge’s card, I’m probably note going to do it.
And then there is the whole ‘unconscious bias’ thing that isn’t even mentioned. It’s all well and good for someone to say they don’t take things into consideration, but they very well may not even know they are doing it.
and please note, I DON’T follow the crowd. I do what I want within the range. For me this means a half pad, potentially a non-navy or black jacket, a full cheek bit…or even rust breeches.
I think it’s far, far more likely that something allowed by the rules but subject to variants of taste is going to play the role of an implicit bias/impact on scores rather than explicit.
I am a very black and white person when it comes to rules. It’s probably why I have hang ups over people who claim “tradition” in a sport that has strayed from tradition and those traditions aren’t rules. (Like my hang up over non-leather girths in the show ring. I would never do it but I won’t judge people who do.) The myths people pointed out, like braid on the right, are not rules. In my mind, that should not even be considered in judging. I get it is subjective, however, that subjective judging should be limited to the horse. Not the rider or the tack. All my opinions aside, conservative is the name of the game.
@RugBug You are correct however the point of the article is for people like @PonyPenny who have an opinion, disregards an opinion from a judge because it’s different then their own, and then latches on to the one judge in the article who admits to scoring rounds based on their bias not what’s in the rule book. I mean they literally told a JUDGE they “can think what they want.”
I don’t really see how this responds to what I’ve posted. The very nature of an unconscious bias is that it’s unconscious. Because hunters is subjective, unconscious bias can play a role whether judges are consciously aware they are applying a bias or not.
I don’t want to go through 9 pages of thread to re-read all of @PonyPenny 's posts (or search for them)…and I know some where very inflexible statements…but I really don’t see what you are seeing.
Unfortunately, MUCH of hunter judging is subjective…and therefore judge’s opinions on a particular jump or a particular round are ALL based on their biases…with a framework of the rulebook. So, a stop is an agreed upon automatic 40 (which is that even in the rule book or just an agreed upon number for a stop?) but who gets to determine what else is an agreed upon ‘rule’* as well as what is conventional/traditional? Those terms, as you pointed out, are highly subjective.
So people like myself or PonyPenny are going to decide what we believe is conventional/traditional, how staunchly we want to stick with it, and how far we want to stray from that. I am older and I would consider some things to be conventional or traditional that younger riders would be shocked to see. Thankfully, I’m fairly confident most judges are closer to may age than the current crop of juniors, so my range of conventional/traditional might be broader than theirs.
I didn’t see anything in the article that contradicted what most seasoned riders/show-ers would say. Sure, it contradicts what people with narrow experience (life or showing) might say, but I don’t like to base my decisions and knowledge on a narrow view.
As for trainers who pass these “myths” off as rules? Meh…it’s a way to control things…and perhaps be understandably lazy. Every horse does not need a standing martingale, but explaining that to all your riders, might get tiresome. And trying to tell parents that the inexpensive but funky hunt coat isn’t going to reflect well on the barn’s image, may not be the easiest conversation, so you tell them it has to be navy and has to be XYZ brand.*
At my more advanced age, if a trainer tried to tell me what brand clothing/tack I needed, I’d be outta there. I’m sorry, but a CWD will NOT fit every horse and it does NOT work for every rider.
Actually… a stop is usually an automatic 40. A rail is a 45. A trot is a 55.
These may not be listed in the rule book, but all USEF judges have to attend a judges’ clinic to get a license in the first place, and then attend more clinics every so often to maintain it. These standard scores are covered in the clinics, along with many other subjects. That way judges are on the same page for the major faults, while every judge brings his or her own individual background to the table for the overall performance.
The beauty of this system is that there is a bit of variety in the mix. If the judge at the show this week is not in love with your horse, the judge next week might adore him.
The only “hunter myth” I believe is braids on the right. The rest I could care less about. The was my original comment until Daventry got herself all worked up about the “hunter myths”. One of the judges commented about his preferences for braiding, which is not required in the rule book either.
If a judge has time to check the brand of saddle or clothing… you really have a lot to worry about regarding your equitation.
1 trainer tried the « buy the trunk, the saddle pad, whatever » in his barn color… He was a really good younger rider/trainer, but starting out… and a little obnoxious…
I reminded him that my budget was X$. I could either spend it on an expensive wooded trunk and some more pads OR I could spend all that money in lessons… His choice.
He took the money and never bothered me about anything.
Thanks, MHM. I’ve edited and corrected. But it’s still not in the rulebook…it’s something that was agreed upon…and something non-judges have to learn through experience or someone else explaining it. They can’t go to the rulebooks and read up on it. Or can they?
In case anyone’s interested, here’s a photo of the judges (ground judge and ridden judge conferring on the right), plus the two people about to hand out ribbons on the left) for the heavyweight show hunter class st Hickstead last year. Very sharp looking!
I’m a little fascinated by the concept of the judges who ride the horses at shows in England. Does that happen anywhere else? Do they ride them over jumps, or just on the flat? And does that happen at lots of shows, or just a few big events? And do the riding judge and the ground judge have a 50/50 say in the placings?
In the UK, a ridden judge often rides working hunters, but I don’t remember them jumping the horses in my classes. This happened at larger and smaller shows when I was a kid, too.
Judges are either sanctioned as Ride and Conformation judges, or Ride only. I believe they’re 50% of the decisions when 2 judges are used.
For working hunters, who are judged on the flat under saddle, over fences, and stripped in hand, the scoring out of 100 is as follows: Jumping - 40
Style - 20
Conformation, movement and type - 20
Ride and manners - 20
Worth noting:
[LIST=1]
Judges are expected to pay particular importance to manners and type whilst judging. If a Judge considers and Exhibit to be ill mannered/ unsound/ unsuitable he/she may ask the Exhibit to retire without being ridden.
(vii) Judges are expected to ride as many Exhibits as time allows. When a Horse appears before a Judge in two classes it is necessary to ride it again as the Horse may give a different ride on its second appearance. This does not apply to Championships.
Where a two-Judge system is used and the Judges are unable to agree, a referee, who must be a Member of the Association’s Panel of Judges, should be called.
[/LIST]
being a ridden judge can be exhausting! They certainly appreciate a well mannered, easy ride
How many horses would a judge ride in a day? And how long are they on each one? Would they ride every horse in a given class? Or just the contenders for the (top?) ribbons?
@MHM I have seen a judge ride every horse in a class, if time allows. If it’s a huge class, some horses at the bottom of the lineup don’t. Usually the judge gets on, adjusts stirrups, and does a quick WTC both ways and a gallop.
Working hunters start with each rider jumping a rustic course at hunting pace. Any who are eliminated don’t come back in. Then the remaining horses come back in all together and line up and do an individual “show” (mini dressage show, plus a gallop) then are each ridden by the judge. Often they are all are untacked and presented for conformation judging too.
Order of all this can vary, but you’ll see horse A being ridden by the judge, horse B ridden by the owner doing their “show”, then stripped, assessed by the other judge, at the same time - all the way down the line.The lower down the line horses may just be excused from the ring while the top 10 continue to compete.
