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Hunter riders lying on their horses necks while looking down over the jumps?

Hunter/Jumper
#41

[QUOTE=Nikki^;7598500]
I asked GM about the hunter riders of today and why they do this Drama Riding style. He said that they were lazy. There you go. :lol:

Here are some lovely pictures:[URL=“http://horsecollectablesforsale.weebly.com/uploads/1/3/5/2/13520673/6809559_orig.jpg”]

http://horsecollectablesforsale.weebly.com/uploads/1/3/5/2/13520673/6809559_orig.jpg

http://horsecollectablesforsale.weebly.com/uploads/1/3/5/2/13520673/1101745_orig.jpg

Joe Fargis is so good, he points to where he wants to go!

http://horsecollectablesforsale.weebly.com/uploads/1/3/5/2/13520673/2565027_orig.jpg

Billy Steinkraus was always styling. This style would win in the hunter ring, even today:
http://horsecollectablesforsale.weebly.com/uploads/1/3/5/2/13520673/6903714_orig.jpg

http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/24/b7/6c/24b76cf9e1ad61f798e8002435acde29.jpg

Even when his horse hits a bad spot, he looks good:
http://37.media.tumblr.com/4ae72ea76584453ed73322ec3eaefad4/tumblr_miaxksvWFC1qhtihqo1_500.jpg

Here’s Marcia “Mousie” Williams, 1966 on Blaney (back cracking horse) http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/7d/4f/10/7d4f1006208d46c8715211e2f43e165b.jpg

Now this is what I call cracking it’s back:

http://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/736x/d0/49/c9/d049c905cd728e23bfe6e78e23ecd16f.jpg

So looking good over a big jump can be done. They aren’t perfect all the time, as nobody is perfect 100% of the time. When I snap a picture of a back cracking hunter and the rider is looking classical, it makes the picture that more appealing.[/QUOTE]

And riders now a days are just horrid… oh wait
https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSD7JpMTUOfbV_mvZyPmp2N0vIvMiYW94m6LaZwITcTy_0BuA9CbQ

http://horsesinthesouth.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/Keenan005965.jpg

http://www.tranquillityhorsefarm.com/images/CarthanoMike3.jpg

http://www.wildturkeyfarm.com/img/stallions/chesapeake_main.jpg

http://njh.images.worldnow.com/images/3467883_G.jpg

#42

If the horses jump beautifully and the riders ride like that then why even bother with equitation? It sounds like a matter of “form” George Morris style equitation is completely unrelated to function. Does the horse care if you ride text book GM style vs the “new” way? Just wondering.

The Hunter/Jumper style is unique to hunter/jumper classes. You do not see it in other disciplines. Try it when hunting for real and there would be a disaster as horse and rider part company. Going cross country, riders stay in balance but often are slightly behind (check out Lucinda Green training for XC), expecting the worst, so that should the horse peck on landing, or the ground drop away unexpectedly, or a horse fall in front of them, they have a chance of staying on board. That is where form and function combine. Hunter/jumper is divorced from any function and is 100% form.

#43

I swore I wasn’t going to comment since this is a beaten-to-death topic. No offense OP if this is , but it tends to bring out the “I WOULD NEVER JUMP LIKE THAT” and “OH THE HUMANITY” in some people.

From being there, and not just at Devon, and seeing some of the top hunter riders all over (the East Coast for me) the photo is (literally) a snap shot of the whole picture.

When I see some of those riders actually RIDING the course, it can be breathtaking. Yes, even my personal HATED posting the canter.

The pros have definitely developed their own recognizable styles, like it or not. Unforunately, legs swing back, reins may get chucked, shoulders slouch. After as many horses as they ride, even show daily, it is bound to happen.

So me? I try to keep my heels down, shoulders back because well… I suck so it’s my only hope. Just kidding, I don’t suck totally but I generally show my one horse at a time. Lord knows I am not doing performance hunter height.

So my suggestion is to try to watch the Devon Live feed for some pro divisions. It is really awe inspiring to watch them go around live. Try to enjoy the beauty in power and be inspired by the horse and riders.

#44

Yeah, it’s always too much effort for those who are dead tired of some topic to just.not.open. those topics :uhoh:
instead they must needs leap in with gunsablazing & tell the poor sod off
:confused:

As if
Boots
Breeches
Saddles
were not also talked up, endlessly, repetitively …
Repetition IS the nature of forums, sometimes there are fresh insights, new ideas, fun exchanges that travel far from the opening gambit

#45

[QUOTE=Silver Silence;7598473]
Interesting. I would.

I am not speaking specifically about riders at Devon either, I’m more speaking to the amount of riders that are taught that this is okay at the low levels. It always ends up looking like riders are showing beyond their skill level when they throw themselves on their horses neck/attempt to jump for them. I know I use to. Coach never said boo about it. I fixed it myself. Far from perfect, but I don’t pinch with my knees or nap on my horses neck anymore![/QUOTE]

I would never go around saying I have great form or that they way I ride should be the
Goal of others, but I’m not exactly embarrassed either. I am very proud of my horse and
all that we have accomplished (including qualifying and showing at Devon this year).

As I said before my horse is happy with the way I ride in the air and at the end of the day that is what matters most to me.

#46

Wow. The next time George Morris wants to update Hunter Seat Equitation with some fresh pictures…

And speaking of old threads on this BB, I still remember the one about this same rider as a tiny pony kid, when many posters picked apart her riding style from a single picture and predicted she would not go far. :lol:

#47

[QUOTE=Silver Silence;7598473]

I am not speaking specifically about riders at Devon either, I’m more speaking to the amount of riders that are taught that this is okay at the low levels. It always ends up looking like riders are showing beyond their skill level when they throw themselves on their horses neck/attempt to jump for them. I know I use to. Coach never said boo about it. I fixed it myself. Far from perfect, but I don’t pinch with my knees or nap on my horses neck anymore![/QUOTE]

Honestly, you’re riding with the wrong trainer. I’ve not ridden with a trainer who didn’t get after me about my tendency to lean and duck. I think the style mentioned in this thread works for a select few of naturally talented riders. For the rest of us, sitting up and riding with better equitation (not equitating, two different things) helps prevent flinging oneself directly onto the ground.

If you’re a pro, and you ride your best backwards in a chair seat while eating bananas, all the more power to you.

#48

[QUOTE=Mukluk;7598406]
If the horses jump beautifully and the riders ride like that then why even bother with equitation? It sounds like a matter of “form” George Morris style equitation is completely unrelated to function. Does the horse care if you ride text book GM style vs the “new” way? Just wondering.[/QUOTE]

I would posit that GM is concerned not with developing a winning hunter rider, but with developing the next generation of world-class GP riders. Laying on the horse’s neck, ducking and looking down at the jump may work ok for hunter riders over 3’6 or 4 ft jumps of related distances (although it seems like a very unsafe way to ride because it puts you in a rather vulnerable position, but I’m no expert), but it would not work for a GP jumper rider navigating a course with bigger jumps, tight turns, unrelated distances and tight changes of directions. My understanding is that GM believes that the American reliance on this “style” in the hunter ring is one of the reasons we aren’t as competitive internationally as we should be.

Now, it may be the case that the most successful hunter riders can easily transition from the hunter ring to the big sticks and change their form to suit, but GM clearly does not believe that is the case for the majority of riders, whether pro or amateur.

#49

Just for laughs, here is a link to a photographers webpage http://www.nicomorgan.com/media/fe52ceba-7da0-11e2-b48f-0b3a062e76b3-joss-hanbury-mfh with a series of pictures of Joss Hanbury MFH, considered to be one of the best people across country in the UK. They are lovely pictures.

#50

[QUOTE=PoohLP;7598705]

Now, it may be the case that the most successful hunter riders can easily transition from the hunter ring to the big sticks and change their form to suit,[/QUOTE]

Here’s one:

http://equestrisol.com/coreEQS/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/eq24small-affair-john-french-devon.jpg

http://equestrisol.com/coreEQS/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/john-french-chawi.jpg

http://www.phelpssports.com/content/photos/62707.jpg

Or:

http://triciabookerphotography.files.wordpress.com/2013/03/2013-02-22_untitled_booker_0327.jpg

http://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/736x/b4/59/b2/b459b27192d6a2b72cd860ac5409693b.jpg

http://24.media.tumblr.com/50466ca87e8e41d646b380bed242596f/tumblr_mve3dxc7yC1r2c95ao1_500.jpg

#51

What I find odd is that SS was interviewed about Mythical and he said KF’s style was to just sort of sit back and let the horse go, whereas SS is more of a manager of the ride-- and he had to learn to let himself ride a little more like KF. Just on WATCHING, I’d say KF looks “busier” and like she’s doing more to affect the horse. But clearly both SS and KF know what they’re doing. So it does make me wonder… how much of the particular riding style is for show (“hey judge, look how good this jump is, it almost jumps me out of the tack”) and how much of it is really necessitated by the horse’s way of going. I also wonder (and will tomorrow do)-- when you watch the warmup jumps-- do these same riders ride the same way? Or is there some showmanship in this. Thoughts?

#52

There is some showmanship involved but it’s judged on the horse so it’s fair game.

Otherwise do we have to do this again…and again…and again…and again…? Has anybody come up with " That’s why I don’t show Hunters, everybody else rides bad so I quit" yet?

I don’t ride like that but those horses are absolutely breathtaking even in the moment in time pictures.

#53

Several years ago one of the top riders in the country said he wished he spent more time in perfecting his equitation…interesting comment from someone who was actually at the top of his game…and the reality is that we all look at photos as a snapshot in time, and no one is a perfect rider. Some days riders look better than others, as do their horses (knees tucked, nice bascule, etc)…it’s a continuum and always evolving, and dependent on so many things at a given moment in time

#54

[QUOTE=EAY;7598779]
Here’s one:

http://equestrisol.com/coreEQS/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/eq24small-affair-john-french-devon.jpg

http://equestrisol.com/coreEQS/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/john-french-chawi.jpg

http://www.phelpssports.com/content/photos/62707.jpg

Or:

http://triciabookerphotography.files.wordpress.com/2013/03/2013-02-22_untitled_booker_0327.jpg

http://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/736x/b4/59/b2/b459b27192d6a2b72cd860ac5409693b.jpg

http://24.media.tumblr.com/50466ca87e8e41d646b380bed242596f/tumblr_mve3dxc7yC1r2c95ao1_500.jpg[/QUOTE]

The interesting thing about the John French group is that the third picture appears to be from the Pro Final class at Capital Challenge, where the top hunter pros take turns showing strange horses, with no/minimal warm up. In that picture, he is very much in the middle of the horse, not posing, but not taking any chances with his center of gravity, either. I’ll bet if you looked at a bunch of pictures from that same class, you would notice a similar position from all the top hunter riders on strange horses, no matter what they typically do on horses they really know.

The second set of pictures shows a good rider adjusting her position to be competitive in different divisions, as most good riders can do.

#55

[QUOTE=staceymc;7597824]
Wrong. Equitation matters in Equitation classes. That’s it. Hunters are judged on the horse’s form only, period, end-of-story.[/QUOTE]

Well, duh, the horse’s form is a lot dependent on the rider’s! :rolleyes:

#56

[QUOTE=WhiskeyBuddy;7597780]
Why is it when I look at the pictures from all the fancy hunter rounds at Devon this week, and other shows in the past, many of the riders are lying on their horses neck and looking down at the fence. [/QUOTE]

Because the riders are exhausted. Have you ever been to a multi-day horse show? I’m exhausted the second I get there. The jumps are also really pretty, who doesn’t want to take an extended look at them as you go over?

Honestly, it may not be the prettiest, but the horses go really well, so while I would prefer perfect eq, I don’t let it bother me when top riders take liberties. Heck, I don’t ride 1/100th as well and for every picture of me with good eq, there are an equal amount or more with bad eq…and what’s worse is that [b]I am[/b] interfering with my horse.

#57

[QUOTE=PoohLP;7598705]
I would posit that GM is concerned not with developing a winning hunter rider, but with developing the next generation of world-class GP riders. Laying on the horse’s neck, ducking and looking down at the jump may work ok for hunter riders over 3’6 or 4 ft jumps of related distances (although it seems like a very unsafe way to ride because it puts you in a rather vulnerable position, but I’m no expert), but it would not work for a GP jumper rider navigating a course with bigger jumps, tight turns, unrelated distances and tight changes of directions. My understanding is that GM believes that the American reliance on this “style” in the hunter ring is one of the reasons we aren’t as competitive internationally as we should be.

Now, it may be the case that the most successful hunter riders can easily transition from the hunter ring to the big sticks and change their form to suit, but GM clearly does not believe that is the case for the majority of riders, whether pro or amateur.[/QUOTE]

I agree with this. I disagree with Muklik that GM form does not follow function; for jumpers its all about function–a strong, stable base of support (leg at girth), following hands, not leaning to help keep balance, eyes up because your riding tight fast turns etc.

I don’t know that the riders need to go as far as they do to make the horses look good (I find the throwing the body up the neck distracting–obviously the judges don’t…), but the really good riders can rider differently in hunters v. jumpers – John French rides a jumper round much more GM style than a hunter round.

#58

I agree with Snaffle, it would be interesting to read some thoughtful comments showing insight into why the hunter rider’s position has changed. I’m not that old, but I have to agree that visually a hunter looked nicer with the rider properly equitating :yes:

haha - sorry hadn’t refreshed my page for awhile so my comment is way too late…

#59

If I had 1/10th the eye, rhythm, and feel that the top pros of the hunter ring do, I would be kissing the ground and being thankful. If I managed to pull off a round that didn’t embarrass me at Devon, much less placed or WON, I’d be bawling anyway.

I’ve got two decades of riding and showing under my belt up and I’d take a twee percentage of their talent in bringing along horses and making them look like that.

I’ve also noticed that there’s only so much you can judge from a photograph :wink:

#60

After having caught up on the thread, I’ve noticed that a lot of jumpers were given as examples, when the original topic was about hunter riders specifically. And a few people assumed that the topic somehow was about how all modern riders are not great. Not sure where some got that from… the question was about the more flamboyant style of some modern hunter riders.

Have to say though that examples of Bill Steinkraus riding are always wonderful. So lovely! Also like seeing the picture of a very young and dappled Milton :cool:

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