Also, not to pick on Hygain, but they really need to fix what I hope/assume is a typo on the nutrient content list for this product: https://hygainfeeds.com/products/hygain-equine-senior. .3% Se?!? Let’s hope not…
I’m in a high iron area, and feed TC balancer gold, plus Ukele copper and zinc. I consulted with Ukele in person to determine the amount to add, given the TC balancer ingredients.
I understand that, but given that iron overload is a concern in many parts of the country and especially a concern for IR horses, why would the OP purchase a supplement with ADDED, not intrinsic iron (TC lists Iron Amino Acid Complex as an ingredient)? Say they have high iron in their forage and water, wouldn’t they have to add more Cu and Zn in order to have a proper 4:1:3 ratio?
Some do. Tribute has started removing added iron from feeds. Some still have it
Even then, some companies add only a little iron, and the majority of the ppm is intrinsic.
Ignore added iron, especially if it’s iron oxide. Look at the total ppm. You can have higher ppm without added iron, than with added iron, depending on where the intrinsic iron is coming from.
they are correct
I love that group, but they can be positively rabid about what an EMS horse must/shouldn’t ever have. SO MANY people get so caught up in IRON BAD!!! and thump people on the head for thinking about using Redmond Rock pink salt which has about a measly 30mg Fe in a 1oz serving, then proceed to tell them to feed 8lb of hay pellets and no “evil grain because added iron” and totally ignore how much iron is coming from those hay pellets. It’s insane.
Oh, I’m sure it’s supposed to be .3ppm
“Iron overload” isn’t nearly as big a deal as many like to think, given how non-bioavailable a lot of it actually is. That doesn’t mean ignore it
If your forage is providing 800-1000mg Fe to your 1100lb horse eating 22lb of that hay, is another 30mg really that big a deal? 100mg? And those fortified feeds are also adding in more cu and zn which are much more bioavailable than the added or intrinsic iron.
There isn’t even any required ratio of Fe:Cu. The only ratio is Cu:Zn, of roughly 1-3:4.
The “required” 4:1 ratio of fe:cu has only come because the minimum for a 500kg horse is 400mg and 100mg respectively. Nowhere in the NRC does anything state that is the ratio needed as well. Dr K herself has said as long as there’s enough copper and zinc, high iron is rarely an issue.
That said, if the diet ratio is in the 40:1 fe:cu range, then even if there’s at least enough cu yes, I would try to get that closer to 10:1
I’m sure it is, too. At least I hope so. But at seeing that on a GA. Based on the rest of that website, the company really needs to hire a marketing team that is more attentive to detail.
It looks like average amount is 500 ppm. If you look at some of the no added iron ones, they have over half that amount still intrinsic to the ingredients. Probably the horse is getting most of its iron from its forage and not 2lbs of a RB.
There’s a testimonial on FB from a woman who has been feeding her Cushings horse 12Lbs TC Senior and he was still not maintaining enough weight …then she switched to only 3lbs Hygain Zero and Balanced and the horse is doing much better apparently…out of curiosity how would this work beings that the TC Senior is high fat and calories compared to Hygains Zero & Balanced which are very low fat & calories??
I dunno but if I had that experience I would presume horse was sensitive to the soy in TC Senior
Testimonials on product pages - carefully chosen by the owners - should be taken with very large grains of salt. Did they also change hay? Did the season change? Did they medicate (or change dose) for the PPID?
That said, like lenapesadie said, it could easily be attributed to a real sensitivity to soy, in which say any soy-free feed/routine could have done the same thing.
Well the first ingredient in Balanced is soybean meal, so if the horse was switched to Zero and Balanced, maybe it got less soy than 12lbs TC but it still got soy.
The triple crown balancer is around 10 or 11%nsc I believe so not bad, and definitely within the “safe” limits for most IR horses, especially considering the low feeding rate. I feed the Hygain Zero to my IR horse and my hard keeper PSSM-1 horse. I LOVE it because the nsc is only 5.5% and its very palatable (and most probiotics make my IR horse sick so I’m thankful this feed doesn’t contain them). But I don’t feed the recommended amount. I feed it with a multivitamin supplement, along with a couple other things, and balance it all with Feed XL. If you’re looking for simple dump-and-go low feeding rate then the TC would probably be better for you.
Sorry I just caught on to your response now for some reason …I am considering swapping from Vermont Blend to a Ration Balancer…such as Triple Crown 30% or the TC Gold Balancer…my horses have been getting VB as their “ forage mineral balancer “ I was looking to simplify my feeding program which was a combo of ODTBC/VB/Flax/ Hygain Zero
I did the reverse and saw major improvements in my horse’s hoof, haircoat, and overall wellbeing/attitude. Every horse I’ve ever seen on TC Balancer did not have great hoof quality. Perhaps it doesn’t balance the hay/forage in my area very well. Just my experience.
without a forage analysis there’s no way to know. Maybe your horse was sensitive to soy. Maybe the TC Balancer needed some additional cu/zn for that hay. I use VB Pro from Spring-Fall, and over Winter, I use TC Balancer + additional cu/zn
I did not just observe hoof changes in my own horse, but other horses who were boarded at my barn, and friend’s horses who were on Balancer. We do live in a high iron area and hay analysis from year’s past also showed low cu/zn in our hay.
I’m not doubting that at all. My point is, that you might have had the same results by adding some cu/zn to the Balancer. And, that’s cheaper too than Vermont Blend
Curious why do you use VB Pro spring -fall then switch Rb in winter ?
Don’t get me wrong I’ve been pretty happy all around with VB along with flax, vitamin e and my carriers of Timothy balance cubes and now plus/minus some Hygain Zero (prior to Hygain I used Nuzu Stabul One -but it was out of stock from Chewy so I decided to try the Hygain)
Surprisingly the vet from New Bolten and the Nutritionist they recommended that helped me with my work up on my mare that has a list of issues ranging from IR, mild asthma, allergies, and 3 different muscle myopathies wasn’t familiar with Vermont Blend( The NBC vet also never heard of Spirulina, Jiagulon and APF…she also told me to stop Spirulina as it can be toxic and cause liver damage ???)they recommended the TC ration balancer along with some un godly expensive supplements for her issues -KER MFM pellets -$300 for a 5 wk supply, KER NanoQ10 $150, Arenus Aleira also $300 …she’s been on them almost 2 months now without any noticeable improvement but they told me to give it at least 3 months …sorry to get off topic …anyhow I switched my mare to the TC Gold Balancer and I think she might be losing some topline …nothing noticeable with feet as of yet ….I was concerned that she won’t be getting the same amounts of biotin/copper/ zinc as with the VB …nutritionist told me based off my hay and feeding either 2 lbs of TC Gold or 1lb of TC 30% all her needs will be met ?? She also didn’t agree with a lot of what Dr Kellon recommends from the ECIR group
Somewhat a pitiful attempt to reduce calories for the fatties while on grass (and muzzled!), and somewhat to remove soy during the times they are very hard to keep weight off, just in case. None have indicated they’re actually metabolic, but I just hedge my bets
Not surprising, the “forage balancers” are new-ish in the grand scheme of things, plus, I would bet most vets have never heard of most v/m supplements in general
what qualifications does the nutritionist have?
“needs met” isn’t specific enough. If she just means that (if your horse is a 1100lb horse) that his diet provides at least 100mg copper and 400mg zinc, then yes, “needs” are met. But if the ratio of cu:zn is too far off 1:4, and/or the ratio of fe:cu is in the 30:1 or more range, then the horse would very likely benefit from more cu/zn. No, there is no recognized fe:cu ratio, or any ratio with mn either, BUT, excessive iron does interfere with cu uptake, and while there’s no studied ratio that optimizes that, or at least doesn’t inhibit it, if you can get fe:cu down to the 10:1 range at least, that seems to help.
Do you have an example?
I know that as more has been learned about PPID and IR/EMS, there are some groups that have adapted and become a bit less strict in things MUST be this way and MUST be that way, where Kellon is still very die-hard, on things like ESC/WSC/starch for both types of horses.
@JB Dr Shannon Pratt Phillips is the Nutritionist…she just isn’t into the fanatic die hard strictness of the ECIR group