thanx, i’ll give it a try and have someone watch me to make sure I’m even in the saddle 'cuz I’m not even CLOSE to being ambidextrous!:lol:
Same or steady tempo (the terms that I used) = rhythm, because steady = consistent. I think some people are trying to make basic dressage sound more complicated than it really is.
WindEqSong, I disagree – if a horse is crooked he cannot swing with his back. Crookedness will interfere with that. In fact crookedness interferes with relaxation and stretching.
Oldschool I read Sabine’s response to mean that a horse stretching down through its back will straighten itself. A horse cannot stretch properly without some degree of self carriage or he will fall onto his forehand.
Mallard of course I can compare what a horse does in a field to what he does under saddle. Not doing so wouldn’t even make any sense when evaluating a horse’s talent. Besides I’ve ridden my horse (many times in fact) and he is naturally straighter and has better self carriage than my Half Arabian pony.
Biomechanically it’s very difficult for a horse to maintain a steady rhythm around a circle if his shoulder is in, because it’s falling in, and he will fall too, following it. A rider on his back exacerbates the problem.
[QUOTE=grayarabpony;3297213]
Same or steady tempo (the terms that I used) = rhythm, because steady = consistent. I think some people are trying to make basic dressage sound more complicated than it really is.
WindEqSong, I disagree – if a horse is crooked he cannot swing with his back. Crookedness will interfere with that. In fact crookedness interferes with relaxation and stretching.
Oldschool I read Sabine’s response to mean that a horse stretching down through its back will straighten itself. A horse cannot stretch properly without some degree of self carriage or he will fall onto his forehand.
Mallard of course I can compare what a horse does in a field to what he does under saddle. Not doing so wouldn’t even make any sense when evaluating a horse’s talent. Besides I’ve ridden my horse (many times in fact) and he is naturally straighter and has better self carriage than my Half Arabian pony.
Biomechanically it’s very difficult for a horse to maintain a steady rhythm around a circle if his shoulder is in, because it’s falling in, and he will fall too, following it. A rider on his back exacerbates the problem.[/QUOTE]
a few comments:
a horse that is properly ridden in rythm and with a balanced rider on straight lines with a ‘suggested contact’ but no force can learn to come to a good stretch which is down and forward out- and this will not mean necessarily landing on the fore- it really depends how the rider manages the topline…I can not over emphasize enough the proper balance and ‘weightlessness of the rider’ to accomplish a horse moving in freedom forward and daring to stretch the topline- that accomplished can in fact loosen a lot of tense muscles that prevent proper straightness…all assuming that there are no major past injuries / physical limitations.
We all speak from our own experiences and many young horses have pasture injuries and are crooked to a large degree because of pasture/growing up issues. A good chiro can see, fix and straighten this out- I would not want to ride a young horse that hasn’t been checked thru and has a really well fitting saddle to boot…if you don’t have the foundation - even good riding can’ t do much…
All stretching forward, down, out involves transferring weight onto the forehand. It is physically impossible to move 25% or more of the horses weight down and out and not shift weight onto the forehand. Hilary Clayton’s movement research proves this beyond any doubt.
The thing is, that because the horse needs to stretch his back and neck and hind quarter muscles, the fact that it puts the horse on the forehand is not during that exercise, actually important.
Since the horse won’t spend 100% of his riding time forward down and out, other exercises will develop the balance and the thrusting power and later carrying power of the back and hind legs.
Without the stretching of topline muscles, the thrusting power of the hind legs would never ‘flow’ through the back properly. Stretched muscles can be strong muscles.
Muscles that are just made strong without stretching are always prone to injury and are never quite as effective as muscles that are both stretched and strong. Having weight more on the forehand momentarily during a stretching exercise is a ‘necessary evil’ that is not really ‘evil’.
[QUOTE=slc2;3297315]
All stretching forward, down, out involves transferring weight onto the forehand. It is physically impossible to move 25% or more of the horses weight down and out and not shift weight onto the forehand. Hilary Clayton’s movement research proves this beyond any doubt.
The thing is, that because the horse needs to stretch his back and neck and hind quarter muscles, the fact that it puts the horse on the forehand is not during that exercise, actually important.
Since the horse won’t spend 100% of his riding time forward down and out, other exercises will develop the balance and the thrusting power and later carrying power of the back and hind legs.
Without the stretching of topline muscles, the thrusting power of the hind legs would never ‘flow’ through the back properly. Stretched muscles can be strong muscles.
Muscles that are just made strong without stretching are always prone to injury and are never quite as effective as muscles that are both stretched and strong. Having weight more on the forehand momentarily during a stretching exercise is a ‘necessary evil’ that is not really ‘evil’.[/QUOTE]
Maybe I’m misunderstanding you SLC, but if you’re referring to a correct long and low, it should not (and does not) involve shifting the weight on to the forehand. Hillary Clayton be damned. Are you talking about something different?
Sabine most of the horses I’ve seen and ridden are naturally crooked to some degree, from being stronger or stiffer on one side over another – of course dressage training corrects this and allows the horse to use himself to his best extent with a rider on his back. I think we are talking about the same thing when we are talking about stretching over the topline resulting in a straight horse with no tightness anywhere hindering his movement. Whether on the lunge or under saddle when a horse stretches the difference can be amazing.
slc2 personally I don’t believe the research is correct,lol. I think everybody’s ridden a stretch where the horse tips forward, loses his balance, and then loses the stretch. A proper stretch means that the horse starts using his back and abs correctly as you said, so he’s not on his forehand.
grayarabpony… I started looking and replying to messages on coth as a help for practicing answering questions in the “L” program. I came to find that there were many lower level or new dressage riders with legitamate questions looking for confirmation or answers.
You make a statement that you don’t agree with the training scale, that many countries top dressage riders, trainers, judges have come up with.
I posted responsed directly from the glossary of dressage terms that biomechanics experts such as Jeff Moore and Sandy Howard have agonized over the wording so riders and judges would have a clear understanding of the terminology. Your response is that some people are trying to make dressage harder than it is.
Dr. Hilary Clayton, a world renowned biomechanics expert tells us that when you take a horses cantilevered head and neck and ask it to go forwards downward it puts more weight on the two front hooves. BTW she had a special floor designed and sensors on the horses hooves to see what the difference was in the weight on the front hooves vs hind hooves. But you also disagree with her scientific research.
I mistakenly was thinking that you were really not understanding that the training scale keeps us on a correct training path. We have guidelines to go to when presented with a new student or horse to train.
Dressage art is right…read her link
Sabine is right… An experienced rider can hop on a new young horse for 20 minutes and get him stretching, soft and pretty straight just by riding in a correct position and asking for correct connection from back to front.
Slc is right… Stretching a horse downwards forwards, a perfectly good and important not to be skipped exercise puts more weight on the shoulders, whether to level balance or a bit on the forehand depends on the conformation of the horse and the experience of the rider.
What I am guessing from your disagreement with the experts, and posters quoting experts is that you aren’t really asking so you can learn… You have taken up a position. Correct me if I am wrong…
My statement on stretching is thoughts that came out of a discussion at our barn, that ‘stretching is bad because it puts the horse on the forehand’.
I DO believe that a horse putting his head down and forward, does shift more of his weight onto his forehand.
I ALSO believe, that to some degree, the horse’s hind legs and back working correctly, helps to counter that.
And I believe in Clayton’s force plate study.
However, what it didn’t show is that the hind legs and back activity can help counter the shift of weight. Because Clayton’s study was done with a stationary horse, and because it would be difficult to measure the phenomenon in motion, we have to just accept ‘dressage wisdom’ that has always said that if you stretch properly, that shift of weight is mitigated, but dressage wisdom has also always said that even if some weight shift still exists (and it certainly will at the start), ‘So what, he still needs to stretch’.
I ALSO believe that it’s quite some time before that starts to happen, even with the most athletic horse. Even so, it’s important to stretch - but of course to also balance stretching with other exercises as well.
[QUOTE=WindsongEq;3297816]
Dr. Hilary Clayton, a world renowned biomechanics expert tells us that when you take a horses cantilevered head and neck and ask it to go forwards downward it puts more weight on the two front hooves. BTW she had a special floor designed and sensors on the horses hooves to see what the difference was in the weight on the front hooves vs hind hooves. [/QUOTE]
More weight in the front hooves doesn’t necessarily mean a horse is “on the forehand” – pulling himself along with the front legs and not coming through with his hinds, which would be my own definition of it. If your horse is fit, pretty well balanced to begin with and has been ridden correctly, stretching just means there’s less stepping through going on. Temporarily.
WindEqSong, I will have to correct you – I am not a newbie. I’ve ridden second level (although mostly I evented) and took my first dressage lesson over 20 years ago.
Yeah, Dr. Clayton’s research no doubt left out the increased work that the horse is doing over his back when he stretches. If Clayton’s work was done with a stationary horse it’s useless in terms of dressage.
I came here for discussion, not lectures. It could be fun to discuss dressage; I think it’s a mystery to a lot of people. The horses I have worked with do not truly work in a rhythm until they are straight. From my experience rhythm, suppleness, contact, impulsion and straightness are all interconnected, they don’t come not one after the other. Is the presentation of the training scale as so linear something that was lost in translation? If the training scale is really a series of interconnecting circles rather than something then is rigidly linear then I do agree with it.
The training scale is the principle of dressage training and has been for years for a very simple reason - it works. But a lot of people who have never really taken a horse up the levels don’t really get how it works. Being rhythmic, straight, having impulsion, the tests for these qualities change has the horse progresses. Being forward at 3rd level has a completely different requirement than it does at training level. Maintaining impulsion through transitions of extreme collection is different maintaining it through basic lateral work.
When you hear people say that good dressage is about the basics, what they mean is that you should approach every new step in a horse’s training with due consideration of the training scale. You should not introduce something new unless you have the basics (in terms of the training scale) established for the work that precedes it. This means you don’t accept that because your horse appeared to be straight at training level, you never think about straightness again. You must always assess these qualities relative to the current work.
And regarding whether is necessarily on the forehand when traveling long and low, I’d say it doesn’t have to be. If a horses is stretching over its back, and pushing from behind, it will fall on its face if it is on the forehand. Proper execution of this movement requires abdominal strength on the horse’s part. Just like the carriage of our shoulders and posture core strength is important for them - that’s what keeps the horse off the forehand.
I didn’t really think windsong was being pedantic or giving a lecture. She was answering a question.
The basic statement of the OP, a horse can’t have a rhythm without being straight, is where she started to misunderstand the training scale.
And like windsong, I’m starting to believe for this one, it’s more important to keep disagreeing than to learn how the training scale MIGHT not be wrong.
nhwr – totally agree that traveling long and low doesn’t have to mean the horse is on the forehand.
And totally off the topic, but re: your sig line …
The differentiating factor between a cow and a bull is not whether it has horns. 
You know, I have taken a little heat for my signatures lines :winkgrin:
I know the difference between cows and bull. You have to think it all the way through :yes:
It doesn’t say that all cows have no horns. But certainly all bulls do have them. It is like a MENSA test question. It just means if you are thinking that if you are thinking you are grabbing the bull by the horns and you can’t find the horns, perhaps you need to rethink things :lol:
Probably too subtle. I will change it when I have thought of something brilliant. Don’t hold your breath 
Pray continue 
[QUOTE=nhwr;3298249]
It doesn’t say that all cows have no horns. But certainly all bulls do. It is like a MENSA test question. It just means if you are thinking that if you are thinking you are grabbing the bull by the horns and you can’t find the horns, perhaps you need to rethink things :lol:[/QUOTE]
Unless you’re making a pun (the LEAST subtle form of humor) on the term “horny,” you are mistaken. Bulls can be polled (hornless in the literal sense), too. And, come to think of it, cows can be “horny” in the figurative sense, as well.
Whole lotta rethinking called for, especially if you’re a MENSA member. :lol:
slc2 perhaps you need to come to my farm and tell my horses they’re wrong. I need to get them to read the training scale guidelines, perhaps that will set them straight. So no, you’re not going to convince me that the training scale is correct if it’s linear, because it doesn’t make any sense. There’s enough incorrect dressage everywhere (including at the upper levels) not to make me believe something just because someone tells me, especially if it runs counter to my experience.
nhwr, no one was saying that the horse doesn’t need to have basics to move up the levels. Where did you get that from? Although a lot of horses seem to lose the basics as they move up – heck some of them even lose a gait.
[QUOTE=nhwr;3298249]
It doesn’t say that all cows have no horns. But certainly all bulls do have them. It is like a MENSA test question. It just means if you are thinking that if you are thinking you are grabbing the bull by the horns and you can’t find the horns, perhaps you need to rethink things :lol:[/QUOTE]
Unless you’re making a pun (the LEAST subtle form of humor) on the term “horny,” you’re mistaken. Bulls can be polled (hornless in the literal sense), too. Come to think of it, cows can be horny in the figurative sense.
Whole lotta rethinking called for, especially for brilliant MENSA folks. :lol:
[QUOTE=nhwr;3298048]
…regarding whether is necessarily on the forehand when traveling long and low, I’d say it doesn’t have to be. If a horses is stretching over its back, and pushing from behind, it will fall on its face if it is on the forehand. Proper execution of this movement requires abdominal strength on the horse’s part. Just like the carriage of our shoulders and posture core strength is important for them - that’s what keeps the horse off the forehand.[/QUOTE]
nhwr… I agree with your post completely.
greyarabpony-on asking a horse to go long and low…There is a difference between an experienced rider asking a trained horse to stretch long and low, with his neck, seeking contact with the bit forwards downwards outwards whilst keeping their own center of mass back, assisting the horse to shift his center of mass over his center of gravity and maintaining his activity which does not allow for the horse to drop its shoulder and fall on its forehand, and a lower level rider learning to stretch its horse’s head and neck down so it can begin to use its back.
Let me say that when I am teaching for instance pony club, and I have a group of c1 riders that I am asking to do bending excercises and their horses begin to seek downwards and reach for the contact, I am telling them “good, good!” I am not saying…“but be careful that they don’t fall on their forehand” as that is a lesson for another day, maybe next month.
On the other hand I ask my 3rd 4th PSG and I1 students that when giving the horse a break, do a stretchy circle, I expect that they maintain the horses weight more toward the hind quarters. As nhwr says… it takes abdominal strength, shoulders back, stable core, asking the horse with our core to carry theirs in balance…
“training scale is correct if it’s linear, because it doesn’t make any sense”
you can not possibly have read any of my posts.
If the training scale has been presented improperly to me as linear and it’s not then I don’t have a problem with it. I see those 4 basics (not including collection) as interlocking circles not as 1 2 3 4 then collection.
WindEqSong, I don’t see how a horse can maintain its stretch if it falls on its forehand. In a training level test a horse is penalized for falling on its forehand during a stretchy circle. And I’m not a C1 rider. I have a little Half Arab pony who when she stretches properly is in self carriage, and has that wonderful floaty almost slow motion-feeling trot with a constant rhythm like a metronome which is what we are going after as a base in all 3 gaits in dressage. If she falls onto her forehand she speeds up and has to raise her head to balance herself.
