I feel like the professionals should stop "ducking"

[Dr_Doolittle]

That is (famously) the Incredible Andrew Nicholson on the lovely Quimbo - be still my heart.

His round at Kentucky that year was spot on perfect and those shots of him doing drops at the Head of The Lake, etc. were the subject of a lot of amused adulation.

One comment: “I’m not that relaxed sitting in my recliner!”

Eventers have to be effective at riding over extreme terrain and tackle all sorts of different obstacles with different levels of balance and difficulty, different types of “questions”, at speed, and all the while staying in the middle of the horse so as not to disrupt their jump/balance - while varying between a soft and strong contact, staying behind the motion when necessary and slipping the reins, softly following, “steering” between the flags, and riding /adjusting the gallop.

I think it’s perfectly possible to ride a beautiful hunter round (and showcase the horse’s jump) without the excessive affectations, but then again, I did hunters in the 70s.

I do realize that most EQ horses have a flatter jump than most hunters, but don’t many jumper and EQ riders maintain good equitation - even when they ride hunters?

[Ambitious_Kate]

@Dr_Doolittle

but don’t many jumper and EQ riders maintain good equitation - even when they ride hunters?

I have a hard time looking at any “hunter” rider today and thinking “good eq”. Pushed up butts with sway backs (the rider) laying on the neck, hands buried under their stomach in the mane. I can’t even watch hunter classes anymore. Give me a nice long release with a straight line from shoulder to bit, quiet leg and flat back, sitting up just enough that they don’t have to crick their head all the way back to be looking at their next fence. But I rode in the 60s and 70s and even then we were chastised for ducking. People swinging their leg back “out of the way”, exaggerating to make their horse look better. I just remember some fine form too, not often seen today.

[Willesdon]

Thank you everyone: interesting discussion

[showy]

I don’t have any dog in this fight as my hunter retired but I am always disheartened to see nasty comments on COTH’s Facebook posts.

Geoffrey’s mom is out there defending her son after an incredible year of success. Chris Payne responded to some idiot saying the poor horse just tolerates him.

[EventerAJ]

@Dr_Doolittle

That is (famously) the Incredible Andrew Hoy on the lovely Quimbo - be still my heart.

Andrew Nicholson

[Nevada10]

I find hunter riders who hurl their bodies over jumps incredibly distracting and it doesn’t let the horse’s brilliance shine. For me, it detracts from the performance. There’s no reason for anyone to be inspecting jumps in midair.

Carlee McCutcheon is the most beautiful rider I’ve ever seen. She’s invisible on the horse and her horses jump beautifully for her. Mclain jumps 1.60m jump offs with flawless equitation. No reason hunter riders can’t have good equitation too.

[Dr_Doolittle]

SO sorry, GAH!

(that’s what I get for posting at 10:30 after a couple of glasses of wine…Off to edit!!)

[blondewithchrome]

This is a tale as old as time. I have never jumped a back cracking hunter around a course of solid 4’ fences and oxers. I cannot imagine what 99% of us would look like doing that. I know personally I pride myself on a solid position and strong lower leg but I know I would not look the same over a 3’ or 1m fence on my jumper versus a 4’ oxer on one of these impressive hunters. Until we all have done it and can compare apples to apples it’s very hard for me to criticize. I’m impressed that they can stay with these powerful hunters and produce consistent rounds in the 90s without even a slight bobble. It’s truly something to watch.

[bamboopole]

Reverse Ducking?

[findeight]

We have this same discussion almost every year around Finals time, possibly it skipped the pandemic years but its back.

Well coached, halfway decent rider is going to shape their body and decisions based on what they are jumping, what the horse is doing, where they are going next and the objective of the class. Are we going around mostly related distances on flat, carefully prepared ground looking like we are on cruise control? Or are we jumping big, wide and tight turns fast? Or are we outside on terrain jumping natural obstacles unforgiving of error. Different rides. Not one size fits all.

That said, we do have too many low level “ expert trainers” out there turning out all manner of incorrect and ineffective riders so many of the examples you might see at those lower levels are not very good examples of the way “ everybody” rides. Because “everybody” does not ride that way.

It has been pointed out in past versions of this discussion that todays desired Hunter jump with extreme knee and crack back style out of todays desired pace is different then in the past and requires a different ride. The effective rider supports the horse using itself in the way today’s courses and judges want to see. Whatever that style may be, if the horse likes it and goes well? Its effective for them and their horses.

About choked a bit upthread that somebody on FB posted that CP’s horses merely “tolerated him”. Really??? Any of my horses would have been delighted to “tolerate” him quite well. Thank you very much.

Be careful what you read as well as what you see, or think you see.

[LSBC]

I went and read some of the responses to the COTH post mentioned upthread. I honestly don’t understand why people feel the need to comment on other people’s riding? Especially when they are successful?? I am a firm believer that if you don’t have anything nice to say you shouldn’t say it at all. There’s no reason why we should be armchair quarterbacking these riders. It is not even helping the sport advance to comment on a Facebook post… so why do it?

[kirbydog]

My first thought here, as a trainer, is that equitation and position are not synonymous. Equitation is good riding, getting the most out of a horse. Performing movements, both on the flat and over fences correctly. Answering the different questions that a challenging course presents.

Position is just that. Position. How many times have you seen a rider go in the ring with a beautiful position, and then proceed to ride quite poorly? As someone who has spent a lifetime standing and waiting in ingates, a million times.

Form is function, but the form has to function correctly, otherwise it’s just posing

[endlessclimb]

Isn’t one of the criteria for a very nice Eq horse, to have a “flatter” jump that’s easier to keep nice position on?

I’m no eq guru, but I distinctly remember hearing that from someone who was into it.

[kirbydog]

Look at pictures from members of the British Team members from the 60’s and 70’s. Then tell me about leg position

David Broome. One of the UK’s finest

[kirbydog]

John Whitaker. One of the best ever. Change the tack, and he could be an American hunter rider
eta JW was/is highly successful in this current era of riders

[dags]

Wooboy the absolute SIGH that escaped when I signed on and saw this would be the topic du jour.

I think there are some that are just mimicking The Duck, no matter how well their horse jumps, and it does indeed look silly to drape yourself over a splinter-bellied jumper.

BUT. There is something about finding a beautiful oxer off a beautiful canter on a beautifully jumping horse that literally makes. you. melt. You feel everything release as you try desperately to not get in the way. The urge to become one begins three strides out as the tension drains from your body, because tension ruins a soft hunter jump. You’re upper body begins to position itself for the massive effort you know is coming, that you’re going to have to follow almost strictly by balance, so that the leg remains soft and breathing. And when that neck literally disappears, while the hind-end is still 4’ below having yet to leave the ground, the urge to wrap yourself around the withers is strong. Add in more than a few braid abrasions up your chin (it’s a thing), and you might just find yourself heading off to one side or the other.

I honestly can’t say I love it to the extent its done all over the lower heights, but I’m not at all surprised to see it in the finals competitions for the nicest hunters in the country.

[MHM]

@dags

Add in more than a few braid abrasions up your chin (it’s a thing)

I don’t think I’ve ever had that happen. But I’ve certainly seen the dusty mark on the front of my own riding jacket, and the jackets of others, signifying a horse with a very round jump. Lol.

[findeight]

@endlessclimb

Isn’t one of the criteria for a very nice Eq horse, to have a “flatter” jump that’s easier to keep nice position on?

I’m no eq guru, but I distinctly remember hearing that from someone who was into it

Yes, all other things being equal (attitude, trainability, willingness etc) the flatter, easier jump is preferred over a lofty, powerful one if looking for something that wont jump riders right out of the tack. And at 3’6”, its not impossible to find that.

[2bayboys]

@dags

the urge to wrap yourself around the withers is strong.

Perfect.

[kirbydog]

Lol, i’ve had a few of those, and dang it hurts!