I missed the boat with my foal -- how to get back on track???

[JoZ]

I have a filly born May 9. She was opinionated pretty much right from the start, but I did get her handled, her first hoof trim, haltering, etc.

Then I got sick AND my work got extremely busy AND I had weekend plans several weeks in a row. All of a sudden the filly is BIG and strong and… feral. :no:

She tolerates being pet but doesn’t LOVE it like most babies I’ve known. That’s how I’ve won them over in the past – find that itchy spot. Lila is indifferent. Add to that, her dam is – for some reason – extremely protective of her, more so than she’s been with other foals. I try to interact with the baby and here comes mom to call her away. I don’t like petting the baby and letting her walk away when SHE chooses, but short of wrestling her to the ground I don’t know what else to do. (I do try to pet her and stop before she wants to leave, but it’s not changing her attitude or behavior that I can see.)

I know I could tie mama or somehow get her out of the way, but right now they are in a group of six and I have not had the time to arrange something different. I am afraid I might have to put them in a stall and take mama back out, then work all day or all night with the baby. That is hard to fit in!

I am most concerned because I haven’t wormed the filly yet. That worries me too – say I finally get a halter on her without either of us getting hurt, I’m afraid I’ll set the whole relationship back again by sticking a wormer in her mouth! There’s a fine reward. I also would like her getting grain now – my friend takes her filly (born the same day) out of the group for grain because she can walk up to her filly and put a halter and lead on her… what a concept!

If worming weren’t a concern I’d take it slowly – she probably WILL come around eventually. But do you think I should be more aggressive about getting my hands (and a halter) on her in order to get her wormed? Any tips or tricks or suggestions? I have never had a baby so happy to live without human touch and attention (in a herd full of attention ho’s!).

[coloredcowhorse]

Can you take mom and tie her outside of a pen or stall with baby inside? That way mom is there but not a danger to you and other horses are not butting in. I would consider using the foal halter to scratch her with…ie…halter in hand that you use to scratch so that she’s touched by it as much as by your hand. You can scratch and pet for some time this way as she can’t get far away from you…just watch out for baby heels as they do hurt a lot. I’ll get them into a small pen or stall, take a 5 gallon bucket in and turn it upside down and sit…curiousity usually gets them to me pretty quickly and just a little scratch under the jaw and then work to the neck, chest, mane, shoulders and withers…just a few seconds each. I have also used a long soft cotton rope and just flipped it over the back and stayed in the middle of the stall and let them pack it around…flip repeatedly and get it up on their neck, back on their butt etc…when you can get it on their neck about 1/3 of the way down you can reach under and get the other end and make a loose loop (just hold the two ends) letting you pull them gently toward you, scratch, rub and wait until they relax to let them move away.

It IS possible to strong arm one that age (I’ve got one the same age that is also not that people oriented yet…her mom was/is not happy being handled as previous owners would rope her and choke her down to do anything instead of taking the time to work with her)…get into a stall and crowd into a corner, pin against the wall with one arm around neck (and higher is more leverage) and grab tail at base and raise it up with the other hand…not pretty but is doable…hold them until they relax and pet and scratch and talk while holding. To be honest one or two handlings like this will not ruin a horse’s relationship with you forever…they are very foregiving. AND they do learn from it that you CAN control them which is not a bad lesson for them to learn (it is the one that Robert Miller’s imprint training does by holding a newborn until they relax…it does work and respect for restraint early in the game is a nice lesson to have under their belt). Don’t know what worm treatment you are planning to use but most can be mixed with some grain or other feed the foal is getting…or you can pretty quickly get it into the corner of their mouth once you get hold of them.

I do prefer to go slow but sometimes a quicker route is necessary and it won’t ruin the foal. Mares nip and sometimes kick foals and they don’t up and leave mom when she does so…same thing with people…sometimes things may be unpleasant but a little loving after makes it OK.

[TKR]

For me, deworming her is paramount and supersedes whatever attitude she might have about it. It’s already way past due. Get a foal halter on her and work with her as you would a newborn as far as imprinting. She just needs to get used to being handled. It doesn’t have to be confrontational, but probably will be at first. She has to accept you and the handling and find out it won’t hurt and can be pleasant.
Good luck!
PennyG

[Kyzteke]

Don’t set yourself up for failure. NEVER attempt something with a horse that you know you can’t do.

I would put working with a sassy foal and a protective dam in the middle of a big pasture under this category!

Instead, bring mom & babe into a VERY small pen or stall. Tie mom up, give her some hay to munch on (or if you have a round pen or some other enclosure where they can see each other you can tie mom outside with a hay net ) and start re-schooling baby.

Scratches are great, but personally I like to get it sorted out right away that I am NOT there just as a scratching post…I am an authority figure.

I suspect that after you have a few “come to Jesus” meetings with your foal where you re-establish your authority, she will relent.

Nothing you do short of beating the foal on a daily basis will “set the relationship back.” YOU ARE THE BOSS!! Horses never mind a fair boss.

It’s funny – I watch this year’s foal, who is a very bold, very sassy gal herself. When she wants to nurse and mom is moving, she will stop and sort of pop her butt at mom…you can almost see the toddler at WalMart have a tantrum! Well, it use to work pretty well, but now that the foal is older (almost 3 mos), mom has had enough of this silliness…baby has to nurse when mom wants to stop.

So last time babe had a fit (it was SO funny, she was pinning her ears at mom and being a real stinker), mom swung her big old butt against her so hard it almost knocked her down, then nipped her!! Humbled baby (at least for afew minutes).

This is not the first time mom has “disciplined” her baby…and last I saw they are still friends…

Horses will test you over and over and over again. This is their nature and the structure of their society. Especially young horses…every day they wake up thinking “Gee, I wonder if I could work my way up one notch higher in the herd today.” And horses are the ultimate opportunists – if they see a chance to “play” you, they will.

Example: I sold a 5 yr old mare to a gal who hasn’t had horses since she was a kid, and then her horse was dead broke. The mare I sold her (which I didn’t breed, but owned for 2 yrs), was always perfect about her feet…not one little issue. A very nice mare in general.

Just this last weekend I was over there and she was telling me how the mare started out being really good about lifting her feet, but now “fights” both her and the farrier…even knocked this gal down once!!

And this is a pretty mellow mare! I just couldn’t believe it! So I lifted up one hind leg, the mare started to fling it around, I growled at her and whacked her once on the butt and that was that…we did it 5 more times and she was a total lamb;)

She simply learned she could buffalo that woman…horses are total masters at spotting a weakness in authority.

So don’t set the stage where they can out run you, walk away from you, etc. Set the stage so you can win the game…:yes:

And don’t worry about scarring the foal for life simply by being firm…this is how you raise a spoiled, manipulative foal…

[pinto_power]

What Kyzteke said…nods head!
If you are not totally confident have someone help you who is expert with babies like this. And definately put the dam outside the stall…with food…as some dams will just be a pain while baby is learning manner and can run over you…it hurts!
My daughter can go in with a snotty 3 month old TB who had never been touched…and have it haltered and wormed in only a few minutes…Was NOT our horse…<smile> She hip checks them into the wall and slips the halter on …baby bucking and fighting all the while…trick is to get your hip against them really really hard…stay in very close to their body.
Leave a cotton shank on the halter…stand outside the stall(smaller the better) and let them be for a few minutes while you watch. When they settle a bit go in worm.
You want to make sure you are confident…because I swear these youngsters can spot lack of confidence in your movements. And these kidlets are determined and strong…
Do be careful…and wear good footwear…those baby feet hurt if they step on your feet…ask me how I know!
Martha

[alexandra]

Seperate them from the herd and put them in a regular box stall for your “training”. Ideally would be a box stall or something where yu can get mom out of the way and directly next to her something very small where you can put the foal to work with it.
My friend has a breeding stand for the mare that is separated towards the foal with just a bar, so that the foals can still drink. And she this a small separate compartment next to that stand for the foal, same length as the mares stand and wide enough so that the foal can turn around. This is pretty perfect. You can move around the foal and have enough space to act but it is not enough space that the foal can get away from you if you want something like deworming etc. And than I would work on to pet her, put halter on and of, lift her feet etc. and only after tshe has again a bit of culture deworm her. Not as first action because that make it even harder to start with your work. And honestly: If I had to choose between deworming and settings the records straight for the future in handling of this foal/horse I would work first on the handling “issues” and only when I have them again on the right track deworm her.
My friend has every year one foal that needs a lot of work but in this stand they all learn it sooner or later without a big fuss or accidents on owners or foal side.

[Equilibrium]

Jo Z, I am laughing so hard here. I just sprayed tea and cookies all over my iPhone!

People never name your babies Lila!!!

It turns them feral! You may have seen my thread a few weeks ago about my feral yearling, well that’s my Lila!

Going back to read full post now.

Terri

[Equilibrium]

I’m in agreeance with everyone else. Bring into small area, either round pen or stable. I know you say you don’t have a lot of time to spare but daily you need to bring this pair in. Even if it’s for just an hour. When they come in, offer a little feed. Mom will let baby eat. Not a lot of food. Just enough so the concept of food starts and that mom will be happy to come in. I would suggest you get someone to help you on the first day. Get the headcollar on and worm her. Leave it til just before going out. Next day bring in and try and do the scritch thing and happy human thing before leaving them to chill and then back out.

But I would get the yuck wormer and head collar thing done on first day. Yup, she will hate you, that’s a joke, but she will get over it. I would put zero expectations on how long it will take and how she should be progressing. Treat it as if it was any normal horse in training so to speak. You make the time and proceed. And for the hour they are in make sure they can chill out together. I don’t know how your mare is but many times they might be shouting and anxious for their friends. You may find another pair next to this pair makes things smoother. I don’t know.

I know it sounds like more than you really want to do right now but trust me, it needs done. You have zero chance in the field. And a second person is probably going to help the situation. As someone who recently witnessed a very bad situation such as this, please make the the time. It won’t get better at weaning for an opinionated filly. She will just be mad and not have a clue to what you want and be twice as big.

Good luck
Terri

[camohn]

ditto the above posts…but also keep in mind that once you get to weaning time and the very protective momma is no longer there and she is not All That to the others she will probably be a bit more humble as well. I have one mare that always has foals like that for the simple reason that she is the overindulgent mother that never disciplines her kids. They climb on her, bite her, kick her…nothing. She just keeps on grazing. And since she is a herd boss no one else messes with her kid either. She raises spoiled brats. So… they think they can do that to people too. Usually her foals meet Mr. Crop at a young age for getting a foot smacked for trying to kick ME at some point. It usually only takes two or 3 times before they respect Mr. Crop and it stops. But weaning time…once Momma is gone and they try to bully the other horses…that does not last very long at all.

[TrotTrotPumpkn]

I had to leave a halter on my foal for awhile, because I had let stuff go way too long and suddenly she was a big girl out in a big pasture who wasn’t halter broke, catchable and had no concept of leading. I used a breakaway halter and was probably lucky as well. I realize it is still dangerous with the breakaway tab and was less than ideal. She wore it until catching her was no issue–several weeks.

Working with her and mum was impossible in the pasture, so I would lead them up to the barn (with help) and put mum in one stall and baby in the next. First day was probably them together, actually, and seperate the second time (but baby had never been in the barn, although mum had). They were just sep. by pipe pannels, so they could see each other. Mum got alfalfa and forgot she had a baby. Baby got a bit of grain and calmed down. Gradually I increased the time apart.

I was very lucky in that I never had to tube de-worm because the baby would eat the wormer in her grain! A little molassus, or the dust from the bottom of the treat bucket mixed with the wormer and she licked it up. Might be worth a try.

[amastrike]

[QUOTE=Equilibrium;5729401]

People never name your babies Lila!!!

It turns them feral! You may have seen my thread a few weeks ago about my feral yearling, well that’s my Lila![/QUOTE]

My filly isn’t feral, but she is feisty… she’s a Lily :lol:.

[RyTimMick]

A lot of good posts here. I would add that you shouldn’t remove the foal from Mom, because then Mom will resent you. So every time she sees you she will start taking the foal far away in the field. Do bring them into a stall, have another set of hands who knows how to put a halter on, walk up to the foal and grab under the neck with one and and flip the tail over the foals back with the other one. It works like a twitch. If the foal pins its ears while approaching it, spank it. You don’t need to be fighting a foal that thinks its boss. Don’t let the foal nurse until you catch it. Once you do, and you have the foal properly twitched, have your friend slip the halter on. Then let go. Approach the foal several times, catch and release. Then let the foal nurse while you are in the stall. Day 2 repeat, and worm.
If Mom pins her ears, you need to deal with her directly, as she will teach the foal to go away from you with this behavior. And you will likely get hurt if you don’t.

If you feel like this is too much, find someone local who deals with foals all the time. They are usually happy to help get you back on track.

Tim

[mbp]

Some good advice already, especially the note to not set yourself up for failure. Along those lines, if there is a good young horse handler that you could pay to come over and help you for a few times, it would end up being money well spent to have experienced backup.

Also, while you are going to be dealing with the wormer anyway, take some time to really study your foal. What are the chances she might have some foal ulcers bothering her? Get with your vet but I’ve seen some dramatic differences in interactions after foals have been treated for ulcers.

[sportnhorse]

Great advice given already, and

if she was older and eating concentrates I’d suggest that you try and feed her the deworming in her food. That way you would get the necessary deworming out of the way and wouldn’t have to stress about halter training her / taming her so as to accomplish it. As we all know, working to a deadline with a horse can put a lot of stress on us and it’s transferred to them.
She’s only just over 2 months old so all is not lost.

You could handle it two ways: catch her, restrain her and deworm her, or, take it slowly and gain her acceptance over a few days. Depends on what time you have available. Perhaps a bit of both: let her get to know you better and then get it over with and then act like nothing happened (ignore her, let her come up to you etc). I agree that it’s best to get some experienced help to assist though, as if she ‘wins’ it’ll be more difficult the next time.

[TrotTrotPumpkn]

Ooops

Oooh my bad! I should read more closely. To clarify my post–my foal was a good 3 mos–almost 4 months old when I finally did the halter/etc. I had the vet clinic do the frist worming when we were there for breeding, so I did the feed through method when she was a bit older than your foal.

My baby was used to being handled all over, just not with a halter on. The mare was more like (thank God I get a break) than resentful about short separations at that stage. No ear pinning, just happy to pig out alone with baby 10 feet away in her sightline. She is a very food-motivated mare though…

At two months I would certainly work on the “gentle” method as much as possible. Be careful–having a helper hold the mare sounds like a good idea.

Sorry about my lack of reading comprehension.

[Equilibrium]

I will disagree on one bit of advice. While I do not tolerate ear pinning, in one that has “gone to the other side” I would take it a bit slower. Smacking and getting after babies which are not used to you on a daily basis is more tricky. I’m only saying this now as I had a very bad situation happen here a few weeks ago involving just such a thing. Somebody decided it was a good idea to put 4 months handling on a baby in 5 mins. I will not go into detail for certain reasons but it was horrific. And no I didn’t stand idly by.

Just be consistent and settle for small steps daily. I am a stickler for discipline but it has to be taken in context.

Terri

[Sugarbrook]

The wormer has never been a problem. Maybe its because we have ponies, but the amount is sooooo small that they just have it put in their mouth and go about their business. Like…opppsss …what was that?? No biggie.

[knowthatifly]

Work on a 12 ft rope with qualified hands will get the foal truly halter broke and respecting space and hierarchy. You can do this with a foal that is a few months old. Don’t agree with “spanking” a foal that pins its ears as it has real potential to teach it to be defensive, resentful, and fight, or to bolt and flee.
If it pins its ears on the 12 ft rope, we drive the baby forward and after a few strides ask it to stop its feet. If the baby softens and chews, it is rewarded with pets/scratches. If not, drive the baby forward again and stop its feet a few strides later until you get “the give” (chewing/softening on the rope) and the baby understands you are the leader in this herd, not him or her. This method works brilliantly and by analogy to natural herd dynamics, but you probably want to see it done before trying it yourself. Worth every second spent to master it.
By the time they are weanlings, you can walk out into a field of weanlings and then point in the direction you want them to go even when they are at liberty and they will go in that direction. And then you can call them back and they will come. Its very cool and you have the foundation for a very receptive youngster to future training of any kind. And without fear or fight or defensiveness.