*I was wrong* ..Deaf owners or Flyball players.

[irkenequine]

My deafblind kid is really breaking my heart at flyball. He is doing SO well on the jump chute but I am having a VERY difficult time convincing him to hop the box for the swimmers turn.

He will not take a ball out of your hand (beacuse his visions bad, he was biting fingers so we untrained that habit a year ago) so luring him around my body with the ball up onto the box is out.

If you set the ball on the box and send him, he will do a dead retrieve for the ball but not with much enthusiasm–but he won’t get up on the box. He will ‘chase’ follow a rope toy, but the payout isn’t as good for him as the ball…so once we’re at flyball practice, he knows there’s balls around, he wants zippo to do with his rope toy, so thats out. Absolutely NO food motivation so I can’t lure him around me with that, either.

I have FANTASTIC flyball coaches (one has her ONYX award on a dog) and they are inventing steps for us as we go, but both are stumped how to proceed. Hurts my heart for him as my roommate’s cattle dog is pretty much competition ready in just a few weeks (learned freakishly fast) and its hard to compare the two. I have NEVER ever before thought of this dog as ‘diabled’ in any way so its hard to see him struggle with something. But I assure you if I thought he DISILKED it, we’d stop. THe pieces just aren’t clicking.

He is NOT scared of the box. We’ve had it in the house for a week and he eats dinner off of it, climbs on it to get balls etc. NO fear of the box…he just doesn’t see the ‘point’ of hopping off of it. Not even that–he doesn’t even know that is being asked of him. Since you can’t coax him with your voice to step onto it, its a hurdle. I can see his brain wheels cranking and STRUGGLING…we had to end class early last week because hew as so mentally tired. I do not want to give up on him as I think this is something he will like once the pieces are put together, and he lOVES class… just looking for suggestions on box training to help put the puzzle together for him. If its not his sport, I am more than OK with that, but I don’t want to give up before we’ve started.

[JWB]

Will be happy to bring this up to my flyball training network if you want (we’ve got several Onyx and 30k dogs in our household and have been to lots of Erin Robbins workshops).

How is your dog on a plain target? From the sound of this you’re not going to have any success luring this dog. Has he learned to hit a target independently?

If he can do that, put it up on the wall and get him banging it with entheusiasm up on the wall… then transition to holding the target on the box.

PM me if you want my FB info. I will attempt to talk you through any particular questions you might have. I have a friend with a deaf dog playing - none with vision issues but I guess if he’s got enough to navigate the jumps, see the ball and find you in the runback he should be able to do it.

Some dogs take longer than others. Don’t judge your dogs against another - just look at his individual accomplishments and figure out what the next step is.

[irkenequine]

Thanks very much, just got your FR. Would love to hear any feedback you get.

We are starting target training now–with my other two who do targets though, clicker training has really been the key to making it ‘stick’ and no ‘clicker’ (flashlight, hand motion) has ever been distinct enough to make sense to him. Going to try the ‘go around me’ technique, add a jump and then add in the box. Also trying to find different tug toys that he might be motivated to chase up and onto the box.

Thanks for the help, will probably be PMing you frequently haha.

[JWB]

Also have you done any training with a vibration collar (in place of a clicker)? You can’t use it on the lanes but it can help you communicate through the training process so you can mark the correct behavior. If he likes the ball, use a ball for the reward! Get one on a rope or a tug.

[irkenequine]

I had a vibration collar when he did obedience as a puppy but is is long broken. We have been using ball as a reward and has been very successful for jumps so far, and for when he ‘touches’ the box. Getting one on a rope toy is an awesome idea, didn’t even occur to me. I never buy them because of course my dogs peel them off in 15 seconds, but just for flyball would be perfect. I’ll go out tomorrow.

[JWB]

I think replacing the vibration collar would be your biggest help. The target training will make everything much easier if you are able to mark the behavior. Will check if anyone else has thoughts on it.

[Bicoastal]

Stop comparing

[QUOTE=irkenequine;6331665]
Hurts my heart for him as my roommate’s cattle dog is pretty much competition ready in just a few weeks (learned freakishly fast) and its hard to compare the two. I have NEVER ever before thought of this dog as ‘diabled’ in any way so its hard to see him struggle with something. [/QUOTE]

Tough love from COTH: don’t compare the two dogs! It hurts your heart that your roommie’s dog is progressing faster You are being inappropriately competitive. You dog does not give a fig what the Cattle Dog is doing.

I’ve been there; with my agility pup I was dismayed classmates who put in less effort were progressing faster. Something must be wrong with me or my dog. No. We are just progressing differently. Horses and dogs it is the same: you are soliciting participation from a third party -an animal- who does XYZ because you ask and motivate him to do so, not because of pride or points or titles.

Sounds like you have excellent training resources for flyball. Have you contacted any deaf & blind trainers or rescue groups? I googled: 1 article with ideas 2 website 3 clicker for deaf dogs 4 blog. You can utilize smell, touch, texture changes.

(My instructor uses triangular Fedex boxes in front of the box…that is a texture change from the slick-smooth surface of the glossy cardboard to the anti-slip matting of the flyball box…Guessing everyone uses that in teaching?)

[JWB]

Everyone in my group (including a deaf dog trainer) said you need to get some way (either vibration or touch) to mark the correct behavior. For a distance sport like flyball you’ll probably need some sort of remote vibrating device. You obviously can’t use a clicker but once you have the dog conditioned to the vibration, get the dog hitting a target with enthusiasm.

Our pup (who isn’t doing any formal flyball work till the end of the first year) is learning to pounce on a target, no matter where we put it. She will jump to hit it on the floor, on the wall, on a chair…because she knows it will earn food or play time with her bunny (rabbit skin). When it’s time for box work we will just move her target onto the box with a jump board in front so she has to jump to hit it.

And like the above poster said, don’t compare your dog to any other. My BC learned the game in two classes. My hound dog took over a year to get it right. The BC never had much of an actual flyball career though because she gets too reactive. The hound, once trained has pretty much never made a mistake. He just got his FGDCH (30k). We also have a 30k retriever that was easy to train but has almost no drive, and a terrier mix that is at 15k right now, an 8 inch height dog, and runs mid-4s in spite of some challenges - that one also took a LONG time to figure out. They were all very different to train, took different amounts of time to figure the game out, but they all learned it eventually through the use of marking the correct behavior and rewarding with whatever is their motivator (food, frisbee, ball, etc)

[irkenequine]

Tough love from COTH: don’t compare the two dogs! It hurts your heart that your roommie’s dog is progressing faster You are being inappropriately competitive. You dog does not give a fig what the Cattle Dog is doing.

You are absolutely correct. It hurts in the sense that I know theyre mentally on the same level (fetching together, living together etc) but Tovin was just disoriented and the game just didnt. make. sense. It was hard to watch him not ‘get it’ but if he didn’t want to play, I’ll still love the hell out of him.

We actually ‘got it’ today but I need to add a vibrating collar back into the mix. I just taught “go around” and then once he had the idea of following hte point, slowly backed it towards the box and then immediately started throwing the ball so he kicks off of it. Not a very novel way of teaching it but it was almost like reinventing the wheel for him, it just did noooot click. We’re there though. I was feeling VERY exasperated because there’s never been anything this dog couldn’t do and I didn’t want to start now.

I think its awesome you have so many varying pups playing. I am tentatively excited to get involved if this turns out to be something Tovin can do. The class is super diverse too, of course you expect it to be all aussies and BC’s and the like but there’s a great variety of dogs.

[irkenequine]

Update on this, just to prove myself totally wrong:

Tovin is headed to his first flyball competition September 15th. Roughly two months after posting this thread, he’s nearly ready for competition. (We are going just to fun-run, and see how he does…but still, I couldn’t be more excited!)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivgf5JIUKTg

This is from a few weeks ago, he no longer has anyone walking in front of the box for him.

Nothing’s impossible with practice!

[bdj]

Awww, irkenequine, Tovin looks GREAT!

So glad to see this update - I love the little wiggle/play bow you see him do in the very last moments of the vid!

I don’t know much about flyball, but he looks like he has the box technique down! Proud of you two, and can’t wait to hear how he does in his first competition!

[irkenequine]

Thanks so much! I don’t love being wrong of course, but I’m thrilled I am in this circumstance.