My grand prix horse, that i owned for 23 of his 30 years, grazed just like that. Always the left foot forward dramatically. He had pretty long legs and his neck was set high, so im guessing that is how he learned to get close to the grass as a foal. All the time.
He did have EPM for his last 8 years. But he competed pretty successfully until then.
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IMO the leg stance = yellow/red flag. It means something, he isn’t doing it for fun. If it were just the one leg forward in a more balanced stance, then maybe = shorter neck than legs, it would be a common thing especially among TB’s. But the crossing of legs is what would worry me.
In fact, if a vet shrugs it off, I’d figure it means this is not the vet who is up on what this horse most needs for a diagnosis.
Define “negative” for EPM, please.
There is no test for EPM (other than the spinal tap which is to be avoided if at all possible). There is a test for the antibodies. A lot of antibodies indicates that a horse is, or was, fighting EPM.
Having treated one horse twice for EPM, I felt I could test for “positive” via the antibodies, but really nothing could be taken as “negative”. Just that if not clearly indicating “positive”, then “probably not active now and maybe truly negative”.
Amen to this. Most vets aren’t as up on neuro as one would wish – sad but true true true. As observed in multiple locations in two states.
Be absolutely sure that you don’t have the next vet up for the next trailer into the parking lot assigned to you. That you do have a diagnosis-specialist assigned to you, neuro and maybe lameness. If you can confirm the appointment directly with the assigned vet, depending on the practice that could help not getting him/her due to miscommunication (it happens).
I find that there is a huge gap between newer and more experienced vets. Another thing that I wish were not so, but it matters.
With luck the vets won’t be so busy that day and more than one will be interested enough to look over a shoulder at what is going on. Sometimes that is very, very helpful, in a practice where the vets respect each other.
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Honestly this is true of my other gelding - long legs + short neck = splay footed stance. This guy is less dramatically short necked, but he has always grazed with that one foot back. It’s the crossing that’s new.
True that.
I’ll have to do some research - I was planning to take him to Virginia Tech, but NC State is also an option (though it’s more expensive!). UGA would be my choice TBH but it is 6+ hours away these days and probably not worth the trip.
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Where are you located? It’s a good 5+ hours between Morven Park and NC State, and a good 11 hours between it and UGA. I can’t imagine any scenario where I would be debating between the three.
Dead smack in the middle of NC. VA Tech is 2 (lol 5, actually) hours, NC State is 1.5, UGA says it’s 4.5 but I’ve never gotten it done under 6.
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VA Tech’s equine vet hospital is in northern VA, outside Washington, DC, nowhere near the campus.
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I forgot that lol it’s 5 hours. Which I KNEW but did a quick google search. All said and done, VA Tech and UGA are about the same distance.
NC State is right there, but colloquially the consensus has been the prices are so much higher it’s worth the trip to VA
Is somewhere like Tryon Equine not an option?
I’ll check out NC State again. I’ve had a couple friends with neuro issues use them and STILL end up at UGA, so call me mildly skeptical. I’ll have to message them and ask why.
Anyways, the smart financial thing to do would be to just retire and watch him. But he’s only 12, and that’s a LONG retirement - I’d really like to know if we are looking at a progressive issue that I need to think about long term, or something treatable within budget. No basket surgery or bone scans for this one, unfortunately.
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Myelogram? If you go down the neuro route that would probably be the next thing they recommend, after neck X-rays and Lyme/EPM/Vit E tests. It’s not cheap though! I’m happy to look up costs if you’d like. I did the neuro thing twice last year, lucky me. One horse got a CT myelogram (thank god for insurance and thank god it was all normal!). The other did not due to unequivocal neck X-rays/ultrasounds and different symptoms.
Both horses saw Dr Johnson at New Bolton. For the second horse it was a joint neuro and lameness appt, with both teams examining the horse together. It was well worth it but did take almost six weeks to get the appt. At least at NB they typically book the exam and initial diagnostics for Day 1 and a myelogram for Day 2, so it’s available if you need it.
FWIW though, even with all the insurance-reimbursed diagnostics, I didn’t really get the degree of certainty it seems like you’re looking for with either horse… though if you haven’t done neck X-rays yet and they’re bad, that could be definitive enough to stop there.
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Thanks for this and the rest of the post. I know I’m hoping for some concrete answers when we are talking horses and… that’s unlikely 
FWIW he’s uninsured for this stuff - basically, enough issues that he got dropped for gut, spine, and all 4 legs 
. So that’s fun! I would likely do a myelogram or however it’s spelled. But not much more than that - I’m willing to X-ray and ultrasound as needed.
I really want the ECVM xray. I brought it up to my vet and they kinda just looked at me, so that + a good neuro exam is really what I’m looking for.
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My Wobbler with the mess in the C6-7 joint always preferred to stand with his left front foot way back, and right front foot way forward when eating at ground level. I did make him “change feet” when I was supervising his hard feed - and he would change feet off the verbal command. He didn’t cross his legs though.
Placing a hoof so the leg is crossed over the other and seeing how quickly the horse puts it back in a normal position is one of the neurological tests that can be done. The problem with it in a hyped up horse is determining if they moved it because it was wrong or just because the horse didn’t want to stand still. It’s very situation dependent. I crossed my Wobbler’s hind legs one day, and ten minutes later I moved him because I needed to - he still had his legs crossed. Another day he moved it back immediately.
I would bring it up, especially as it’s new.
How easily does he back up? And does he back normally, especially more quickly and for longer distances (more than 3-4 steps)? You’re looking for straight, dragging feet, front feet stepping on hind feet. Now ask yourself if the things you see are his normal action.
When I walked my Wobbler down the aisle for the vet to watch I realized that he stubbed/scuffed his front toes a lot, and that it was something he’d always done. I hadn’t consciously known until that moment, but I did know he’d been doing it a long time.
That’s what you need to look for. Any way of moving or standing that strikes you as something you don’t see other horses doing, and then ask yourself how long he’s been doing it. If you can video or take pictures of it, do so.
I could point to a bunch of things my horse did for pretty much his entire life, that I thought were “just him”. Things that any horse might do once in a great while. Things that I now know are signs of possible neurological deficits when they occur often enough to be considered “normal” for that horse.
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My instinct is to say he’s great at backing up; head down, easily takes big “normal” steps back. But also haven’t backed him up in a while… if something has changed in the last few months I may not know.
Another thing is he’s a fidgeter - not in an anxious way, but he just isn’t one to stand still without food in his face (and maybe not even then). Take him somewhere new and that’s amplified x1000.
Hmm.
This guy does this. It’s not BRAND new, but he didn’t do it as a youngster - maybe the last 2-3 years? He’s always been a “daisy clipper” mover and lazy (aka he’s always had a trip in him if he isn’t paying attention) and I remember telling my mother years ago that this horse can’t event because he’s got no worries about hitting a jump and killing us both… it was a joke then but now I’m like hmmmmm. He loves to go handwalk on trails but until I got my new one I didn’t realize how much I have to micromanage his feet - his method is to just plow through things tripping the whole way.
I’ve always just thought it was because he’s lazy, but now it’s markedly more pronounced. For a long time I’ve assumed it was bad angles + maybe sore SI/stifles, and it COULD be, but as time goes on it starts to feel like a lack of self preservation.
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Sorry for the double post but - this is why I’m suddenly so focused on it. I bought another horse, and while I’ve been riding and handling other people’s horses the whole time it’s different when I have more control and time to stare at the new guy. The younger one is track tight, terrible angles, etc etc all the excuses to be wonky… and he doesn’t trip or stumble or stand weird. Suddenly I realize my older guy may be more “different” than I thought…
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There are equine surgeons and internists at the Virginia Tech veterinary teaching hospital in Blacksburg as well as at the Equine Medical Center in Leesburg!
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Yes but I thought their services were very limited to the types of stuff you are learning on your first rotations? I didn’t think they did things like sophisticated neuro/lameness exams? Or do they?
Historically the services in Blacksburg were more limited but they have had full service equine specialists there for maybe 10 years now. There are fewer equine faculty in Bburg than some of the other VTHs mentioned so it might be more difficult to get the coordination across services that the OP needs and a referral will be needed. Just wanted to clarify that VT is an option in SW VA 
Ah, that explains why this is all new to me. I lived in the area 20+ years ago and they really didn’t offer much in terms of equine services at Blacksburg then.
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Vet appointment is soon but maybe I’m just looking for more confirmation that this isn’t normal.
Red circle is his right front. Picture is taken from pretty much straight in front of him. This is him just loose in turnout, he stood there like that long enough for me to put my muck cart down, get my phone, walk over, and take a few pictures. He didn’t move until he thought I had a treat and he walked over.
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