Important news!! WFFS is finally recognized

[mvp]

@snaffle1987

And to clear the air, a carrier and the root of this gene can be found even if the original animal is dead. Get some of these big schools on board with researching the origination of it; many of them have in-depth experience and great results with finding these issues in food producing animal populations. The results will not be overnight but the original animal who started this mess can be found; even if he or she lived 30+ years ago. These scientists also developed tests for the issue once it was identified for the current population (living). German researchers recently found a deficiency gene in cattle; perhaps the same scientists in Germany could assist with this.

With all due respect, I don’t think there’s enough money or interest in the problem. Cattle (especially dairy cattle but also beefers) is a different story. Not only is their a much larger economic incentive there, but pedigree and “performance” records (relating to phenotype) are much fuller.

[mvp]

[QUOTE=SnicklefritzG;n10098871

If there are known carriers that are competing successfully into their later years, I don’t think people should be running around screaming that carrier status is bad. It just means people should test before breeding and more work should be done, but making blanket statements is ridiculous. Not directed at you Laureace, but to other comments in this thread.

[/QUOTE]

The soundness of an individual carrier/heterozygous horse has nothing to do with whether or not that animal’s genotype is good for the population at large, at least as far as that one recessive and lethal allele goes.

And I don’t think it’s “ridiculous” for someone to care about the well-being of the breed/population over time.

Now if the heterozygous version of the gene actually confers that soundness, that’s a different question. But so far, no one has claimed any selective advantage to being heterozygous.

[JB]

@snaffle1987

what do you suggest Culling means? What are all these breeders going to do with “culled” broodmares; especially those in Europe where breeding warmbloods is a much bigger game.

Generically, it means removing from the breeding pool. That does not inherently mean removing from the world. How many young, sound broodmares (remember, breed the best, ride the rest) are out there who could have very useful careers? Lots. Are there those who aren’t rideable for whatever reason? Absolutely. What do those breeders do with those mares who are no longer even breedable?

@snaffle1987

And to clear the air, a carrier and the root of this gene can be found even if the original animal is dead. Get some of these big schools on board with researching the origination of it; many of them have in-depth experience and great results with finding these issues in food producing animal populations. The results will not be overnight but the original animal who started this mess can be found; even if he or she lived 30+ years ago. These scientists also developed tests for the issue once it was identified for the current population (living). German researchers recently found a deficiency gene in cattle; perhaps the same scientists in Germany could assist with this.

Unless you had an absolutely perfect pedigree intact, no, you aren’t guaranteed to find the source, unless it’s relatively new, when record keeping became much more consistent and reliable. If the TB world can’t even agree where cream came into the population, that proves you aren’t guaranteed to find all sources of any given trait.

I don’t see there being enough funding to do this sort of research, which means it will be left up to people who love taking pen to paper and doing the dirty work of manual tracing.

@SnicklefritzG

If they are broodmares only, not used as riding horses, in their teens and not a likely candidate for someone wanting to start them (as opposed to a 3 or 4 year old), then culling might be tantamount to exactly what others are implying.

What do you feel is the % of those mares who are carriers, vs those mares who become unsound for breeding?

If there are known carriers that are competing successfully into their later years, I don’t think people should be running around screaming that carrier status is bad.

Thankfully, nobody is screaming that It’s been stated over and over and that we don’t know.

Knowing there is 1 older stallion still competing, in good health, in his teens, doesn’t prove there is no increased risk. Knowing there is 1 older stallion not competing due to a career-ending injury likewise doesn’t prove there is an increased risk. It’s not at all that simple.

[snaffle1987]

You will not be able to find it manually by pen and paper tracing. that will not hold up in a court of law if a lawsuit ensued from a breeder. It needs to be scientifically proven. Until then, pen and paper findings are merely assumptions. What you can do with pen and paper is find a trail based from incidents and narrow that trail down to potential carriers to be avoided. It would merely be considered a guideline.

If the trait started to occur in the last 30 years the probability of locating the originator is very likely. Guaranteed? no it is not. But it is worth a shot to try. Saying it is impossible because the originators are likely dead; is untruthful.

If Don Principe is a carrier and there is posters here saying he should still be bred because he is in his teens and still competing sound; you have your answer. the Warmblood industry is not in support of eradicating this growing problem. If you want to free the breed from this issue then the right path would be to test everything alive in the herdbook and remove carriers from the breeding shed; Regardless of success or popularity. Until then, breeders and owners will only be able to identify that exists and test their mares they plan to breed.

[snaffle1987]

@mvp

With all due respect, I don’t think there’s enough money or interest in the problem. Cattle (especially dairy cattle but also beefers) is a different story. Not only is their a much larger economic incentive there, but pedigree and “performance” records (relating to phenotype) are much fuller.

It is only an economic standpoint. Horses are a hobby sport; especially show horses. When you start getting into genetic diseases in food producing animals; regardless of species, the money tied up in that is in the billions worldwide. Therefore there is a much greater interest in locating and identifying carriers permanently and removing them permanently from the gene pool.

If this was affecting Thoroughbreds I bet the perspective and interest in identifying it would be much greater.,

[SnicklefritzG]

I’m well aware of that and the way genetics and statistics work.

What many people take issue with are those who are making blanket statements. That IS ridiculous. I don’t think that people whose immediate reaction is “cull all carriers from breeding” are making the best possible decisions for breeding long term. Being against that isn’t a sign that others don’t care, another ridiculous notion.

@mvp

The soundness of an individual carrier/heterozygous horse has nothing to do with whether or not that animal’s genotype is good for the population at large, at least as far as that one recessive and lethal allele goes.

And I don’t think it’s “ridiculous” for someone to care about the well-being of the breed/population over time.

Now if the heterozygous version of the gene actually confers that soundness, that’s a different question. But so far, no one has claimed any selective advantage to being heterozygous.

[JB]

@snaffle1987

You will not be able to find it manually by pen and paper tracing. that will not hold up in a court of law if a lawsuit ensued from a breeder. It needs to be scientifically proven. Until then, pen and paper findings are merely assumptions. What you can do with pen and paper is find a trail based from incidents and narrow that trail down to potential carriers to be avoided. It would merely be considered a guideline.

Of course. Some are already trying to start doing that. My point was I doubt there will ever be enough money to fund the research into tracing this. And in the end, it doesn’t really matter when it comes to what happens going forward. Just like there are AQHA people who think that just because Impressive isn’t on the 5-gen paper, they don’t have to worry about HYPP, there will always be WB people who think the same.Knowing when this started might give someone way smarter than I am a better idea of its coverage %, which may or may not influence steps going forward.

I hope it IS discovered. And it won’t take years more before that source is publicly named. At the very least that could keep some % of MOs and SOs from needing to test (other than to have a paper stating clear) if they know 100% that horse isn’t in their pedigree. I’m just not holding my breath.

[Manni01]

@snaffle1987

The risk would be spending many of thousands of dollars to breed a mare only to get a foal who comes into the world in pain and suffering only to be euthanized. You, the breeder and owner of the foal are a significant amount of $$$ out of your own pocket and have nothing to show for it. For the small breeder or the competition rider who has a successful mare they’d like to breed; this result could be devastating. For the breeders who have large broodmare bands (like Europe), one foal death out of 30 that year is nothing more than a drop in the bucket.

The Greed comes in when we have breeders who refuse to test their mares, or breed to untested stallions or stallions who are positive, and knowingly take the risk of producing affected foals. Greed is stallion owners who have tested their stallions but refuse to release the results (this would be a major red flag that the stallion is a carrier). When a breeder chooses to breed to a stallion who is a carrier because they outweigh the stallions success in performance and the breeding shed over the fact that he is a carrier and they would be continuing on that gene; that is greed,

The majority of the breeders are out to produce performance horses. Performance buyers don’t honestly care if the horse is a carrier or not. The breeding careers only (usually) come after a successful performance career or testing approval which is secondary to producing and raising successful performance horses. Current stallion testing and approvals do not require a stallion or mare to be tested in order to receive approval. Perhaps, if they started doing this ASAP; opinions would change in a flash. This would not affect current approved stallions and mares in the gene pool but it would prevent further approved stallions and mares from entering the herd book.

Breed associations could mandate that all new registered animals have the test performed and any identified carrier could not be registered. But then that could hurt registrations as each test is slightly more than $50.00. The breed association is a gate keeper but they are also a business. So, while this method could be very good for the future of the breed, it could also significantly affect the associations financially.

I am a little confused who is a greedy breeder and who is not. I get it that breeders who are not testing and taking a risk are greedy, I IMO everything needs to be done in terms of education to prevent that.

I am not sure though why a breeder who is breeding a carrier to a clear is greedy. I am not sure what risk he is taking??? I think by now its pretty clear that this gene is not not carried by only a few horses in the population which could easily be culled. If you start to cull you will probably have to cull some of the most successful lines in Dressage and Jumper warmbloods ever and I really wonder why you should do this and what would be the result??? Clear horse for this disorder ok, but maybe in the next couple of years there will be more tests available and how do we know that these horses which are clear for WFFS are clear for other genetic defects as well??? I think calling breeders who test and try to avoid breeding affected foals greedy doesn’t make any sense to me. Please what risk do they take??? So far there is no disadvantage for a horse being a carrier for WFFS except that he is a carrier which obviously in the eyes of some people is bad. And this horse will spread a disease… Hah… I wonder how many horses spread diseases nobody knows about yet… Nobody was talking about WFFS until Hilltop published it…

[Manni01]

@JB

Of course. Some are already trying to start doing that. My point was I doubt there will ever be enough money to fund the research into tracing this. And in the end, it doesn’t really matter when it comes to what happens going forward. Just like there are AQHA people who think that just because Impressive isn’t on the 5-gen paper, they don’t have to worry about HYPP, there will always be WB people who think the same.Knowing when this started might give someone way smarter than I am a better idea of its coverage %, which may or may not influence steps going forward.

I hope it IS discovered. And it won’t take years more before that source is publicly named. At the very least that could keep some % of MOs and SOs from needing to test (other than to have a paper stating clear) if they know 100% that horse isn’t in their pedigree. I’m just not holding my breath.

Why would put anybody any money into research to find out who brought the mutation into the population??? IMO thats a total waste of money. Only people who like to blame some poor stallion probably like to research things like that…
What difference will it make???

I think money should be spend for research in order to develope more tests for genetic disorders. Because that will help breeders (Well it will if they don’t need to cull all carriers of course, because that will destroy breeding in the long run, because there will be no healthy and high quality horse left after doing a lot of tests on every horse…)

[JB]

@Manni01

Why would put anybody any money into research to find out who brought the mutation into the population??? IMO thats a total waste of money. Only people who like to blame some poor stallion probably like to research things like that…
What difference will it make???

Why would, and did, anyone put money into finding the source of HERDA in the stock horse population? Why would, and did, anyone put any effort into the LWO gene? Or the gene for any other disorders that manifest like WFFS, a deleterious disease in the homozygous form?

Because they can, and people want to know. You may think it’s a waste of money. Others don’t.

I think money should be spend for research in order to develope more tests for genetic disorders.

I don’t disagree. Generally though, those who fund research want something very specific researched, so if someone wants to spend money looking for the source of WFFS, that’s what gets done, doesn’t matter what you think. Or, go for it and set up a foundation that is specific to researching the genetics of whatever disorder(s) you want, so that anyone funding your company knows what that money could be earmarked for.

Because that will help breeders (Well it will if they don’t need to cull all carriers of course, because that will destroy breeding in the long run, because there will be no healthy and high quality horse left after doing a lot of tests on every horse…)

You really think there are, or will be, that many mutations out there causing such havoc in the homozygous form, that nobody is talking about, that we’d be left with no quality breeding stock? All of a sudden, after how many centuries that man has been breeding horses, we’d suddenly run into a bottleneck because of all these new mutations?

[Manni01]

@JB

Why would, and did, anyone put money into finding the source of HERDA in the stock horse population? Why would, and did, anyone put any effort into the LWO gene? Or the gene for any other disorders that manifest like WFFS, a deleterious disease in the homozygous form?

Because they can, and people want to know. You may think it’s a waste of money. Others don’t.

Maybe QH people are different. But I cannot imagine warmblood breeders to search for the horse in which the mutation possibly occurred… And maybe that happened 100 years ago who knows???

]I don’t disagree. Generally though, those who fund research want something very specific researched, so if someone wants to spend money looking for the source of WFFS, that’s what gets done, doesn’t matter what you think. Or, go for it and set up a foundation that is specific to researching the genetics of whatever disorder(s) you want, so that anyone funding your company knows what that money could be earmarked for.

In Dogs its very easy Nobody is interested in the guilty first dog with the mutations. What researchers go for is a lot more tests for genetic disorders in big breeds. Somehow I think there is more money to earn with big breeds. In Curlies (my breed) there is not a big interest to develope tests, because nobody will sell a lot of tests to Curly breeders because there are only very few dogs… So we really in the beginning got the tests which were identical with other breeds. Like the EIC test was developed for Labradors and could be used for Curlies as well…

You really think there are, or will be, that many mutations out there causing such havoc in the homozygous form, that nobody is talking about, that we’d be left with no quality breeding stock? All of a sudden, after how many centuries that man has been breeding horses, we’d suddenly run into a bottleneck because of all these new mutations?

??? Please who was talking about WFFS until a couple of weeks ago?? Nobody. And than you wanted to cull Sternlicht in order to prevent a spreading of the disease… Now it becomes apparent that WFFS is spread around already… Believe me, once one test is accepted there will be more… We have several threads in this board about genetic problems in horses… And as soon as people can test for it they will. I know that there are foals born with only one eye… I am sure thats genetic… What about roaring or club feet… Its all genetic… And I am sure in a couple of years there will be tests for it… And I am sure there is more. And no, I don’t think those are new mutations… They have been there for a long time. Breeders just ignored them… Because nobody talked about it, doesn’t mean there are no problems.

[Edre]

Ultimately, I think knowledge is power. In this case, I think knowledge includes knowing where the gene originated from and how it’s spread. If you can isolate a source, you can have an easier time tracking potential carriers (which is helpful for breeding purposes, but it’s also helpful for researchers if they’re looking to identify a specific population for numbers reasons). Likewise, knowing how mutations can spread through populations (and how human industry - breed registries/approvals - can impact that) is good information to have! What we stand to learn about WFFS in “this” moment could stand to benefit the equestrian community at large when the “next” thing crops up. The “next” thing may not even be in the warmblood population, but if the breeders/registries do a good job with tracking, identifying, and studying WFFS it could be used as a positive case study/example of how to manage other concerns further down the road.

Genetics are a matter of probability. Probability is, at the base of it, a total numbers game. The more people know about the numbers, the more informed people’s decisions can be, and the better chances people have of generating positive outcomes that line up with the desired end result. For this to really work, though, I think we need to be willing to continue developing our understanding of genetic inheritance (both the good and the bad).

(And something I’ve been considering as I read more about WFFS and some of the discussions around it: what are people’s thoughts about the viability of requiring test results for stallion licensing? Not saying that a stallion has to be N/N, but that the stallion must be tested to be licensed & those results will be made public by whatever registry that’s approved him. That way mare owners will be able to know the status of a stallion - and if they end up deciding that a N/WFFS stallion is still one they want to consider breeding to, they can test their own mare at that point to see if she’s a carrier as well.)

[snaffle1987]

the breeder/owner of the popular stallion who is refusing to release their test result sends up a major red flag to me. I don’t know who the stallion is, but if you asked a stallion owner to release the test results and they refused; obviously there is something amiss. I personally think that the breed society should mandate testing on all stallion/foal/mare approvals and all results should be made public. Their reg papers should be permanently marked as should any online database that is connected to the herd book.

Lots of questions need to be answered still but I do not fully understand why owners/breeders WOULD NOT be pro identifying this gene and carriers.

[JB]

@Manni01

Maybe QH people are different. But I cannot imagine warmblood breeders to search for the horse in which the mutation possibly occurred… And maybe that happened 100 years ago who knows???

People are people, and it’s not necessarily a “breed person” who wants answers.

In Dogs its very easy Nobody is interested in the guilty first dog with the mutations. What researchers go for is a lot more tests for genetic disorders in big breeds. Somehow I think there is more money to earn with big breeds. In Curlies (my breed) there is not a big interest to develope tests, because nobody will sell a lot of tests to Curly breeders because there are only very few dogs… So we really in the beginning got the tests which were identical with other breeds. Like the EIC test was developed for Labradors and could be used for Curlies as well…

I can’t speak to other species, especially the scale is very different. Dogs can certainly produce many more offspring in a year and in a lifetime than horses, pets are a much bigger industry than horses, dogs are a bigger industry than cats (it’s taken ENORMOUS effort to get funding to research a cure for FIP for example), cattle are light years ahead of horses in terms of economy, so in a sense, horses are more like cats - not nearly the interest in spending money for this sort of thing

??? Please who was talking about WFFS until a couple of weeks ago?? Nobody.

Not sure what that has to do with the issue. It doesn’t indicate how long this has been around, only that someone (Hilltop) finally took a stand and went public with it.

And than you wanted to cull Sternlicht in order to prevent a spreading of the disease

I’m not sure how many times I have to tell you that I have never said that :rolleyes: I have ONLY ever said that I agree with HT on their stance of taking him out of breeding for now until more is known. I have NEVER said that I think we should work to eliminate this.

… Now it becomes apparent that WFFS is spread around already… Believe me, once one test is accepted there will be more…

Of course there will be more. There will always be more. Every reputable breeding setup should take it upon themselves as a whole to want to identify genetic health risks in their population. You can’t prevent them - genes mutate regularly, and thankfully most of them are meaningless. It’s no different from some registries requiring xrays to “prove” no OCD

We have several threads in this board about genetic problems in horses… And as soon as people can test for it they will.

Thank goodness they will.

I know that there are foals born with only one eye… I am sure thats genetic…

Don’t confuse heritable issues with congenital defects - entirely different.

What about roaring or club feet… Its all genetic… And I am sure in a couple of years there will be tests for it… And I am sure there is more. And no, I don’t think those are new mutations… They have been there for a long time. Breeders just ignored them… Because nobody talked about it, doesn’t mean there are no problems.

It’s hard to hide roaring (even with surgery) and club feet, so I don’t think anyone is going to spend $ and effort looking for what are probably multi-factoral issues. There are certainly issues that are not talked about, feet have long been ignored as part of breeding criteria, long-term soundness has been ignored too long in race-bred TBs (even as it IS talked about), and more. Human nature.

[Manni01]

@JB

People are people, and it’s not necessarily a “breed person” who wants answers.

I can’t speak to other species, especially the scale is very different. Dogs can certainly produce many more offspring in a year and in a lifetime than horses, pets are a much bigger industry than horses, dogs are a bigger industry than cats (it’s taken ENORMOUS effort to get funding to research a cure for FIP for example), cattle are light years ahead of horses in terms of economy, so in a sense, horses are more like cats - not nearly the interest in spending money for this sort of thing

Not sure what that has to do with the issue. It doesn’t indicate how long this has been around, only that someone (Hilltop) finally took a stand and went public with it.

I’m not sure how many times I have to tell you that I have never said that :rolleyes: I have ONLY ever said that I agree with HT on their stance of taking him out of breeding for now until more is known. I have NEVER said that I think we should work to eliminate this.

Of course there will be more. There will always be more. Every reputable breeding setup should take it upon themselves as a whole to want to identify genetic health risks in their population. You can’t prevent them - genes mutate regularly, and thankfully most of them are meaningless. It’s no different from some registries requiring xrays to “prove” no OCD

Thank goodness they will.

Don’t confuse heritable issues with congenital defects - entirely different.

It’s hard to hide roaring (even with surgery) and club feet, so I don’t think anyone is going to spend $ and effort looking for what are probably multi-factoral issues. There are certainly issues that are not talked about, feet have long been ignored as part of breeding criteria, long-term soundness has been ignored too long in race-bred TBs (even as it IS talked about), and more. Human nature.

With this I agree!

[Manni01]

@snaffle1987

the breeder/owner of the popular stallion who is refusing to release their test result sends up a major red flag to me. I don’t know who the stallion is, but if you asked a stallion owner to release the test results and they refused; obviously there is something amiss. I personally think that the breed society should mandate testing on all stallion/foal/mare approvals and all results should be made public. Their reg papers should be permanently marked as should any online database that is connected to the herd book.

Lots of questions need to be answered still but I do not fully understand why owners/breeders WOULD NOT be pro identifying this gene and carriers.

I quoted it before and now I do it again… Read this article and then you know why breeder try to keep quiet about problems…
http://mastiffmessageboard.websitetoolbox.com/post/omerta-the-breeders’-code-of-silence-2926672

[oldernewbie]

@Manni01

I quoted it before and now I do it again… Read this article and then you know why breeder try to keep quiet about problems…
http://mastiffmessageboard.websitetoolbox.com/post/omerta-the-breeders’-code-of-silence-2926672

That about sums it up, doesn’t it? The same pattern repeats every time one of these genetic disorders appears.

As for breeding or not breeding carriers, the horse is out of the barn, so to speak. Due to lack of leadership on the registries’ part, people will follow the path that makes the most sense to them.

If you are active in your registry, you can advocate for a more aggressive approach to this (or any approach at all, since there truly doesn’t appear to be one). You can test your horses and insist that any breeding match be tested on both sides.You can start a web site like www.foal.org to track results that people submit voluntarily.

There’s a lot of experience and knowledge out there if people will go look for it or ask for it.

[vineyridge]

In general, human beings are very shortsighted. They look at what seems best now without regard to determining first if something will be best in the long term. Then the longterm results come about that we didn’t consider at the beginning. We are fighting climate change, fighting plastics, fighting earthquakes all because humans tend to put innovations into wide use without first researching potential long term effects. We jumped to nuclear power without a process of eliminating nuclear waste. We are jumping into battery powered everything without a plan for the safe disposal of waste batteries, even knowing that they have the potential to poison the earth and water. This is how humans do things. We simply do not consider the effects of today on 100 years on.

If this allele is so widespread already that people are unwilling to take reasonable steps to contain it today, think what the situation will be like in 100 years. Think of the good of the whole instead of the good of the individual.

If breeders knew where the mutation came from, they could look at their pedigrees and know if they even needed to test.

[SonnysMom]

@Manni01

Why would put anybody any money into research to find out who brought the mutation into the population??? IMO thats a total waste of money. Only people who like to blame some poor stallion probably like to research things like that…
What difference will it make???

I think money should be spend for research in order to develope more tests for genetic disorders. Because that will help breeders (Well it will if they don’t need to cull all carriers of course, because that will destroy breeding in the long run, because there will be no healthy and high quality horse left after doing a lot of tests on every horse…)

If you know that that the mutation occurred with a particular stallion then the mutation is only carried by his decendents. If a breeder is 100% sure that their horse does not have that stallion as an ancestor then there is no reason for them to test for that condition. Right now since nobody knows where the mutation originated all breeders should test their breeding stock to determine if their horse is a carrier. Since this is a recessive trait they could breed to a horse that has been tested as a non-carrier but that may limit them to a smaller pool of stallions. As it stands a higher percentage of horses should be tested prior to breeding to determine non-carrier status. If you can determine the source then you should be able to limit testing those horses decended from that horse.

I know you hate this analogy but …if a QH does not have Impressive anywhere in its pedigree then there is no reason to test for HYPP. Only horses that have Impressive as an ancestor can have HYPP. If 20% of the QH population has Impressive breeding then why does 100% of those that want to breed their QH need to pay for the test when it only applies to 20% of the population?

[Manni01]

@oldernewbie

That about sums it up, doesn’t it? The same pattern repeats every time one of these genetic disorders appears.

As for breeding or not breeding carriers, the horse is out of the barn, so to speak. Due to lack of leadership on the registries’ part, people will follow the path that makes the most sense to them.

If you are active in your registry, you can advocate for a more aggressive approach to this (or any approach at all, since there truly doesn’t appear to be one). You can test your horses and insist that any breeding match be tested on both sides.You can start a web site like www.foal.org to track results that people submit voluntarily.

There’s a lot of experience and knowledge out there if people will go look for it or ask for it.

Breeders in the US are already organizing. There is a FB group which keeps a database… To me it looks like they are doing the right thing!