Important news!! WFFS is finally recognized

[Kareen]

Thank you Mary for setting this straight. I too have to say I am not happy with how the matter is handled thus far. Collecting data and sharing it in responsible ways is mandatory and the WFFS-Group has achieved great things.
I have signed up to contribute. Unfortunately (but not entirely unexpectedly) only very few breeders have opted to submit their carriers and WFFS-foals but collecting the n/n results alone will not work, we need to have the carriers and WFFS/WFFS cases on file.

I have therefor decided to open a separate file where people may submit their results without going public. I know such lists have been flying around for a while but I hope to develop it into a universal tool to help with risk management and help save testing costs in the future because foals of known n/n x n/n matings or when all 4 grandparents are tested n/n the foals won’t need to be tested.

It is work but someone has to do it and being aware that we breeders are the only ones having a vivid interest in obtaining and managing this information I daresay we’re on our own there. Putting pressure on crusty, longstanding structures is never a good idea they just crack or crash but they won’t move. Better to be the fluid and go through the gaps. Goals a lot more easily achieved that way in my experience. Overcoming old structures one has to work with what’s there and find ways around rigid opposition
I am in the lucky position to have very good access and while I could think of less busy times to worry about the matter - breeding and show-season in full course I also see the chances because a) the opposition is just as busy and b) because right now there is a definite impulse triggered by your case, Mary’s. And while panic mode is never a good advisor I think now is the time to start taking action and if things go to plan we might have an infobase within a few years if not months and a much better position. Thank you for handling this the way you did. I think you were spot on and it is unfair if you are accused of fearmongering. That is not what you did.

[cloudyandcallie]

Thank you Mary for your post.
Sorry for what you’ve had to go through.
Those of us who buy european warmbloods need to know what is going on in europe and in American breeding.

[Manni01]

@cloudyandcallie

Thank you Mary for your post.
Sorry for what you’ve had to go through.
Those of us who buy european warmbloods need to know what is going on in europe and in American breeding.

as long as you don’t breed, you don’t need to care at all… Please don’t go crazy about something which is no deal at all. The only important thing is not to produce a dead foal.

[DownYonder]

@mary

I am the owner of the NA foal tested positive for WFFS. I am now going to set this record straight once and for all having kept my silence for nearly 3 months n order to allow Hilltop and the Van Olst family to get their ducks in a row. …

Mary, I am so very sorry about your foal. Thank you for having the courage to bring this terrible genetic condition to the forefront. Maybe some good will come of it.

[DownYonder]

@Manni01

as long as you don’t breed, you don’t need to care at all… Please don’t go crazy about something which is no deal at all. The only important thing is not to produce a dead foal.

No - the other important thing is to not produce a foal that may be a carrier. Otherwise, the gene continues to get transmitted down through the generations. And some other poor breeder down the line will tragically lose a foal like Mary did.

[Manni01]

@DownYonder

No - the other important thing is to not produce a foal that may be a carrier. Otherwise, the gene continues to get transmitted down through the generations. And some other poor breeder down the line will tragically lose a foal like Mary did.

Good luck with that… sure that’s the ideal goal but I think it’s way too late to have that as a primary goal. Wait for newer statistical evaluations for the amount of carriers. And if you breed a carrier to a clear you have a 50% chance of a clear. I think that’s as good as it gets right now…

[DownYonder]

@Manni01

Good luck with that… sure that’s the ideal goal but I think it’s way too late to have that as a primary goal. Wait for newer statistical evaluations for the amount of carriers. And if you breed a carrier to a clear you have a 50% chance of a clear. I think that’s as good as it gets right now…

Let’s just say I disagree with “kicking the can down the road” for future breeders to have to worry about.

[cloudyandcallie]

@Manni01

as long as you don’t breed, you don’t need to care at all… Please don’t go crazy about something which is no deal at all. The only important thing is not to produce a dead foal.

Uh excuse me for caring about horses that I do not breed. Just like I buy horses from reputable breeders and my australian shepherds from breeders who do not breed dogs with hip dysplasia or deafness. I care about the quality and health of horses even though I only buy TBs and WBs.

It is “a big deal” when people breed animals, horses or dogs or whatever, that produce offspring, foals or whatever, that suffer and die and produce other defective offspring.

[Manni01]

@DownYonder

Let’s just say I disagree with “kicking the can down the road” for future breeders to have to worry about.

As I said good luck with it. And honestly the best you can do for future breeders right now is to test, and to try to get the numbers stable and try to work on reducing them. Continuing like until now with hiding because people create fear will worsen the situation… and that will for sure not help future breeders and you can start by testing your mares and look for clear stallions !!

[Manni01]

@cloudyandcallie

Uh excuse me for caring about horses that I do not breed. Just like I buy horses from reputable breeders and my australian shepherds from breeders who do not breed dogs with hip dysplasia or deafness. I care about the quality and health of horses even though I only buy TBs and WBs.

It is “a big deal” when people breed animals, horses or dogs or whatever, that produce offspring, foals or whatever, that suffer and die and produce other defective offspring.

the only tiny problem is that there is a little difference between hip dysplasia and WFFS. Maybe do some research first before you throw everything in the same pot.

[keysfins]

From EuroDressage: Van Olst offers free testing to its breeders

http://www.eurodressage.com/2018/05/…g-its-breeders

<snip>

[B]Everdale is the first European based stallion of which the owner has confirmed that he tested positive for WFFS. However, it is expected that many more will follow as stallion owners in the leading breeding countries such as Germany, Holland, Denmark and Sweden will need test their stallions and have the ethics to disclose the information to its breeders.

Gert-Jan van Olst’s other stallions were tested by Hilltop too (Negro, Painted Black, Lord Leatherdale, Chippendale, Glamourdale and George Clooney) and they were all negative.

“Van Olst believes that the scale of the problem is relatively small, because in all those years almost 1000 foals by Everdale were born and there were never problems,” a press release by Van Olst stated. “Nonetheless Van Olst takes this seriously and wants to know more about the influence of the WFFS gene on breeding. It will be important to see which position KWPN will be taking, because most likely Everdale is not the only carrier in the European stallion book.”

Van Olst is offering all its breeders who have bred or want to breed to Everdale a free WFFS testing. The breeder needs to send a hair and blood sample to Van Olst, who will send it the a U.K. based lab where the test is carrier out. All costs for the test will be covered by Van Olst.

“If the mare turns out to be no carrier after the test, there is no problem,” said Van Olst. “If the mare is a carrier, there is a heightened risk and the breeder will have the choice to take the risk or choose another stallion.”[/B]

<snip>

At least Van Olst is acknowledging the issue. It seems generous to cover the testing of mares that breeders may want to breed to Everdale.

But call me cynical, why should a prospective breeder send a mare’s hair and blood samples to the stallion owner? It should go straight to the lab.

[vineyridge]

Mary, would you mind posting either the full pedigree of the mare or a link to her pedigree (on Horse Telex if possible)? Or the foal’s full pedigree? It would help in looking for common ancestors.

[vineyridge]

For those of us who aren’t breeders, EED stands for early embryonic death. That would mean that carrier to carrier would risk not getting a pregnancy that could produce a fetus. Abortion would mean that carrier to carrier would risk not getting a fetus to term.

One wonders how the WB live foal production stats are trending?

[vineyridge]

De Kooning has Condor top and bottom, FWIW. Anyone know if this is a problem in SFs?

[keysfins]

@vineyridge

For those of us who aren’t breeders, EED stands for early embryonic death. That would mean that carrier to carrier would risk not getting a pregnancy that could produce a fetus. Abortion would mean that carrier to carrier would risk not getting a fetus to term.

One wonders how the WB live foal production stats are trending?

I have been thinking the same. It seems that the presentation of a live foal that is affected is rare. Someone earlier in the thread mentioned that the reason so few affected foals have been documented may be because it is rare for an embryo/fetus that is affected to make it to full term.

( @ahf, that was in your post above. )

Typically we never know the cause of an EED. And abortion of a fetus later in gestation is not terribly unusual, but the cause may not be known.

I really don’t follow the thinking of “don’t worry about breeding carriers”. Why NOT try to reduce the number of carriers? Mare owners can test and know their mare’s status. Mare owners can also inquire about the status of a stallion they might consider using. There is rarely only a single stallion that would be suitable or desirable for a breeder to use for the mare who is clear.

If given the choice of two stallions that fit the breeder’s needs, why NOT use the clear stallion instead of a carrier? (That becomes essential if the mare is a carrier.)

Yes, in the short term, a carrier could be bred to a clear, and we still risk producing a carrier 50% of the time.

If we continue to breed carrier to clear, I think it would be interesting to have the foal tested. 50/50 chance that foal is a carrier vs. clear. That foal may end up a gelding, or a mare NOT used in a breeding program. But I think we won’t really know the actual prevalence of WFFS carriers unless we test any foals produced as a result of carrier x clear.

Why NOT aim for eliminating the syndrome by responsible breeding selections? If we aim high, to eliminate the syndrome, there’s a better chance of reducing the incidence of the syndrome, and also reducing the number of carriers. There will always be people who don’t test their breeding stock, or who may not be concerned about possibly producing another carrier.

To me, it would be interesting to see if carrier status has any effect on performance, longevity, incidence of injury, or other observable data. We don’t know, becasue we haven’t looked. At least now, we know there is a reasonably affordable test available for WFFS status. And there is open discussion about it. Still waiting on more information from Europe, though, especially from stallion owners.

I wonder if there’s a way to make disclosure of WFFS status a benefit to a stallion owner. The two facilities here that came forward publicly about their stallions have had very positive feedback for being open, it would seem.

Going off course here:
I’m also sort of mulling about DSLD/ESPA, because that, too is believed to be a disease of the connective tissue. There’s a clinical test that suggests whether a horse has the disease or not. The test requires a sample of the nuchal ligament, which is fairly invasive. But I wonder if a genetic test, using hair roots, could also be developed, to identify affected / carrier / clear, similarly to the WFFS genetic test. I guess until the gene, or genes, that are responsible for DSLD/ESPA are identified and expression understood, it won’t be so easy, As it is now, animals that are affected and identified with the disease would ideally not be part of the breeding population. We really don’t know if there might be genetic carriers of DSLD/ESPA, at this time. That’s why there are research scientists and geneticists in the world.

BUT!!! Just had another thought. Wouldn’t it be interesting to test animals identified as positive for DSLD/ESPA for the WFFS gene status? I wonder if anyone has done that. Back to pondering…

[mvp]

[QUOTE]=Edre;n10099844]Ultimately, I think knowledge is power. In this case, I think knowledge includes knowing where the gene originated from and how it’s spread. If you can isolate a source, you can have an easier time tracking potential carriers (which is helpful for breeding purposes, but it’s also helpful for researchers if they’re looking to identify a specific population for numbers reasons). Likewise, knowing how mutations can spread through populations (and how human industry - breed registries/approvals - can impact that) is good information to have! What we stand to learn about WFFS in “this” moment could stand to benefit the equestrian community at large when the “next” thing crops up. The “next” thing may not even be in the warmblood population, but if the breeders/registries do a good job with tracking, identifying, and studying WFFS it could be used as a positive case study/example of how to manage other concerns further down the road./[QUOTE]

One of the reasons one might like to know where this recessive allele originated is because it’s valuable now to know which lineages it’s most likely to show up in. Furthermore, if those known carriers are extremely wide-spread within the whole population, you can then try to calculate the odds of any individual in the present holding the allele. And if you know that information, you can then decide just how aggressively you’d like to cull carriers. If there are plenty of homozygous dominant individuals out there for these carriers to breed with that is perhaps less of an immediate crisis than if the majority of animals in the population are heterozygous.

[mvp]

@Manni01

Please who was talking about WFFS until a couple of weeks ago?? Nobody.

I believe I read here that academic geneticists like Cornell’s Nena Winand were talking about this before two weeks ago. Didn’t she patent a test for it a few years ago?

[Manni01]

@mvp

I believe I read here that academic geneticists like Cornell’s Nena Winand were talking about this before two weeks ago. Didn’t she patent a test for it a few years ago?

Yes in 2013. And there was a discussion then, BTW I participated in that discussion and I already had the same opinion as I have today. But although there was that discussion still nothing happened. Nobody tested their horses and The University of Utrecht issued even a statement that they never heard of WFFS before (I think that was a bit ridiculous ) But please tell me sources for discussions about it between 2013 and now…

[vineyridge]

Discussions? It took Americans who aren’t major players in the WB breeding establishment to “out” condition in 2018 with widespread publicity on social media and elsewhere, even though apparently there has been hushed discussion among breeders since the 1990s and a test developed five years ago. Not scientists publishing a paper that was read by probably 200 people; not registries that willfully seem to refuse to read the science on horses; not the Dutch university that poopooed the evidence and the science; not the biggest stallion stations and semen sellers who preferred to be ignorant to keep their customers blind–just an American mare owner and the American stallion station that she used.

[SnicklefritzG]

Producing a carrier does not necessarily equate to producing a defective horse,.

@cloudyandcallie

Uh excuse me for caring about horses that I do not breed. Just like I buy horses from reputable breeders and my australian shepherds from breeders who do not breed dogs with hip dysplasia or deafness. I care about the quality and health of horses even though I only buy TBs and WBs.

It is “a big deal” when people breed animals, horses or dogs or whatever, that produce offspring, foals or whatever, that suffer and die and produce other defective offspring.