You are telling everyone they do not understand…
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Breeding is seldom, if ever, based on selection of a single trait. Your statements (and inferences drawn therefrom) are only valid in the context of avoidance of this single allele. One may infer then that your measure of “successful breeding” is the reduction of the allele in the population. This is naive.
Breeders can simultaneously care about the genetic breeding population (and the improvement thereof) and continue to use carriers. <gasp>!!!
Such breeders will be utilizing measures of success, or quality metrics, that include a variety of factors, not just the absence of this allele. Such breeders may be able to improve the overall quality of the genetic breeding population even as the number of carriers increases when one considers other quality metrics besides just absence of this single allele.
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really everyone?? maybe check what you write…
I meant any mating to a carrier, whether it is carrier to carrier or carrier to clear. With such a test and abortion afterwards, only clears would be produced to live foal. Eventually the allele would disappear from the population. You would not lose the genetic benefits of carriers either.
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Ok for all the experts on population genetics.
I really tried to learn about it. Because I was wondering whether I might be wrong.
So I learned about the Hardy Weinberg principle and read a study about the development of carriers in a population of Arabian horses in SA. And that was very interesting and confirmed me that everything I said so far was right 
The study showed clearly that as long as everything (there have to be specific conditions for the HW principle ) stays the same the numbers of carriers in a population will also stay the same (Hardy Weinberg principle) .
They will not stay the same, when some stallions are used very many times and much more then others. If those stallions are carriers the number of carriers will increase (And I fear that is what happened with WFFS 
)
But as soon as breeders have the possibility to test, the numbers of carriers will go down because breeders plan their breedings accordingly to all the informations they have
I am kind of relieved
Did something happen with this thread? The post numbers have changed. My reply to MVP cited MVP’s posts #366, #367 and #368.
Yet now, this post of mine will be Post #361.Were posts removed? I guess I can review from the beginning. Curious.
@Bent Hickory , thank you for your post. I absolutely agree, there are a multitude of traits, factors and abilities that a breeder considers when making a breeding plan, not just one single genetic trait.
I would say your view fits with the first part of the Baker quote I posted:
[B]A breeder is one who leaves the breed with more depth of quality than when he started.
[/B]IMO, your examples of breeders describe those who are looking ahead and forward, with the goal of improving the overall quality of the breeding population.
And actually, your example of breeders improving the overall quality of breeding animals could very well have the added benefit of improving the overall quality of animals that do not end up in the breeding population. These include the geldings, and mares that will have a career in sport or other work instead of breeding. This group makes up the majority of the overall population, I believe.
I do still feel that testing of breeding animals is a good practice, if only to prevent the possibility of a carrier x carrier breeding, which has the risk of producing a WFFS affected foal. That is a preventable outcome. As well, testing may help shed light on the prevalence of carriers vs. clears in the overall population.
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Your suggestion that testing fetuses and terminating a carrier fetus, is very much the long and expensive way around an issue that can be dealt with much earlier, more easily and more economically. Breeders that are willing to use their mares in the manner you mention, are thankfully pretty much non-existent.
Obviously breeders that are unwilling to test and/or are willing to breed carriers won’t be testing and aborting carrier fetuses.
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Can we please stop the catfighting? It is not helping the matter 
I have started to keep a confidential file that is looking to fill up rather quickly. I plan on making it available in an anonymous form to breeders who are looking for a tool of risk-management. Working on the how to’s right now and will have to think of how to finance it once it outgrows my two hands but think we need to stick to validated data. The FB-group-spreadsheet is great and I will keep contributing to it as far as clients agree to having their horses’ data published. I think most won’t though. I’ve even had stallion owners not wanting their n/n stallion’s results put on there so this shows you how deep the fear of publicity is seated within this industry.
We also must not forget that WFFS is not and will never be the be all and end all of warmblood breeding. The issue has been around for decades if not since the 19th century and if the incidence has gone up it is most likely because of modern repro technology increasing the single individual’s impact significantly and removing the previous geographic barriers by virtue of shipping chilled and frozen semen around the globe. In my opinion we still have way too little information so to me collecting more (validated!) data is paramount and if stallion owners and registries chose to turn a blind eye in view of economy and/or personal convenience we will have to find ways around this fact. We might be a minority in wanting to tackle WFFS and each one of us can only control what happens in their own personal sphere but if you add all of these personal spheres and stick to proven facts the information will come together and we can thus overcome the blocking powers rather quickly. That will be the day when the reign of breeding politics goes back to democratic principles and mare owners will have a say.
So instead of falling into panic mode and discontinue to breed carriers we should gather more hard facts and use them wisely.
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Well said, Kareen. But given the ostrich syndrome that registries have exhibited in the past, I don’t have a lot of hope that they will do much more than suggest that breeders test their stock and refrain from breeding a carrier mare to a carrier stallion. I would ideally like to see registries not license carrier stallions, but the stallion owners will fight that tooth and nail. And since the SOs very much dominate registry politics, perhaps the best we can hope for is that registries will publish carrier status on their stallion rosters. A further step would be to require testing of every mare presented for inspection, and record the mare’s status in their mare books, and send notification to owners of carrier mares that they should be sure to use only non-carrier stallions for the mare. Additionally, the registries could test foals and permanently record their carrier status on their registration papers, as well as notify the breeder/foal owner of the foal’s carrier status. Yes, it will increase inspection/registration costs, but so be it.
The registries need to get proactive and enact some stringent measures to help prevent this genetic fault from continuing to spread in the breeding population. Most mare owners are hobby breeders producing only a few foals every couple of years, and many do not keep up with breeding trends and practices. A great number of them will not even know about this condition until they present a mare or foal at inspection and get slapped with a higher inspection/registration fee, but that is infinitely preferable to having a foal die soon after birth because of WFFS.
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Just a quick update, my database has evolved to about 200 entries thus far, please keep them coming. Meanwhile I have still been usuccessful to find any n/n tested stallions. Called 5 stations, three rather major ones. Will keep screening. Only one stallion I can warrant for is the one I had bred one of my mares to the day before her test result came. He has come out n/n so if nothing else evolves I might just stick to that one to breed her dam to. It’s a bit like pulling teeth though, one would think in the 21st century and with genomic mapping being complete it wouldn’t take weeks, months or years to control a simple autosomal recessive genetic issue…
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The NRPS studbook is going to have all their stallions testes.
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and what will the stallions do without them? :lol:
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A good laugh first thing in the morning, thanks, SnicklefritzG!
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Oops, testeD! Did not have my reading glasses on.
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Don’t worry Elles… Freudian slip. It would solve the problem though!
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My pedigree research has pointed to four possible sources from among the stallions in the ninth generation of Aliska K and Don Principe–1897 Hannoverian Swabensreich, 1914 Holsteiner Favorit, the TB Fondroyant II or the SF Issu d’Amblies. The mares are a bit harder to evaluate. I’m still working on that.
And one big problem is that a carrier is just as likely to produce a clear when mated to a clear as a carrier. Each breeding is a new coin toss.
But right at the moment I am suffering from an abscessed tooth and waiting for a root canal. Needless to say, my powers of concentration are completely gone.
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Sorry to hear about your dental issue. Pedigree-wise I think you are not looking in the right direction. All but one of the 14 stallions I have in my data collection thus far fit into one scheme and the one doesn’t have a complete pedigree listed anywhere and is dead so unlikely to ever find out whether his is a different genetic issue or he has common ancestors with the other 13 of them. Several smart brains have analysed the cases independently from one another and all got to the same hypothesis. That being said I think it would make sense to focus on future generations instead of getting all hung up on where it originated. It’s been around for over a dozen decades that we can safely assume because of the wide spread we already know is there.
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What’s up with Paul S. saying "this problem isn’t in Germany’ and his stallions won’t be tested
??
I saw that too. I think he is trying to say that it’s in American stallions only and that Germany doesn’t have any documented cases to date. Doesn’t seem to be the case IMHO.
