Important news!! WFFS is finally recognized

[Manni01]

@Albion

No, Manni, that is NOT what I said. Go back and read it again. What I said directly was “I don’t believe all carriers of every single genetic anomaly need to be culled” and “I do think having a good understanding of what being a ‘carrier’ means is a good idea, however” (those are not “2 differing statements,” unless you’re willfully making up false interpretations, which you seem to routinely do on this board). I provided 2 examples where culling carriers from the breeding population would be deleterious & rather pointless, because carriers don’t have issues (CA & LWO are different than HYPP, since N/H horses CAN and DO show negative, life-altering symptoms. HERDA - at least as far as the scientists are concerned - is possibly an attractive thing to select for, at least for heterozygous status, and they’re unsure on potential negative effects of being a carrier. Is WFFS the same? WE DON’T KNOW, and NEITHER DO THE SCIENTISTS RESEARCHING IT, which was my whole point).

YOU are the one who said that the studies said that “obviously QH breeders don’t care about producing affected horses which is horrible” based on your superficial readings of the studies (or, most likely, the short quotes I provided), which is NOT what the studies said. Instead of throwing a hissy fit about statements after willfully misreading posts & quotes, perhaps you should READ the studies and actually think long and hard about what they’re saying, rather than knee-jerk reactions. No one is suggesting sending this stallion to slaughter, chopping his balls off, or permanently culling every horse that tests positive for WFFS from the breeding population; rather, they are suggesting that “hey maybe we should learn more about what this means.” Which seems a fair statement to make, rather than shrieking that expressing concern over a horse carrying a copy of a gene that may have serious, devastating consequences for future offspring (again: WE DON’T KNOW. It could be CA, it could be HYPP) equals wanting to sterilize them all and send them to slaughter. Which, as far as I can tell, has been what you’ve been doing on this thread.

This has been around for a long time and other then dead foals, so far nobody was concerned about problems carriers might have… Unless proven otherwise for me, a carrier is not a problem as long as his breeding is managed… Everything else is right now not productive (so why did you say however, if you have no problems with carriers? ) And it is not like HYPP… So why even mentioning it in every post… The hesitance is totally different in HYPP…
Lets hope people are doing the right thing, whatever that might be

[xQHDQ]

@CanteringCarrot

This may be a wasted effort but…

I think that this stallion could continue breeding IF there is a guaranteed way to make sure the mares are clean and this is monitored. Plus, as mentioned, more research about being a carrier and any other possible effects would be useful.

.

Agree but a big IF.
The problem is then the baby of this cross. If it’s a carrier and kept a stallion or breeding mare, there’s no guarantee that it’s new owner will not breed it or will even have it tested. If everyone tests, the disease can be controlled by avoid breeding two carriers. But if only some test, this disorder will continue to spread.

I think the mare that was positive and was going to be bred to Sternlicht should not be used for breeding at all.

[trubandloki]

@Manni01

This has been around for a long time and other then dead foals, so far nobody was concerned about problems carriers might have… Unless proven otherwise for me, a carrier is not a problem as long as his breeding is managed… Everything else is right now not productive

This seems like a strange post for the person who started a thread on the topic and is saying how great it is that this farm is not breeding this stallion this season.

[Manni01]

I think I will leave this discussion… I started it because I think its great that the stallion owner went public with it!! I love transparency. You can interpret whatever you want to want.
Last night one of my favorite broodmares died because of Birthcomplications and left a gorgeous 1 day old filly. Breeding is not for the faint of heart and there are millions of risks.
If you don’t look at Genetic testing as a big relieve for reducing at least some of the risks that ok. thats your opinion.
But its really a waste of time to keep this discussion running… This is not providing information but people only insist on their points.
I pray right now that the owners of this filly can work out this situation… Good luck with all your opionions…

[trubandloki]

@Manni01

If you don’t look at Genetic testing as a big relieve for reducing at least some of the risks that ok. thats your opinion.

Hu?
Am I reading that wrong?
You are trying to imply that people in this thread are against genetic testing?

I read this thread that pretty much everyone is for genetic testing and not breeding in a manner that increases risks.

Clearly I have glasses of a different color than you do.

[Manni01]

@trubandloki

Hu?
Am I reading that wrong?
You are trying to imply that people in this thread are against genetic testing?

I read this thread that pretty much everyone is for genetic testing and not breeding in a manner that increases risks.

Clearly I have glasses of a different color than you do.

Yes you do… I had the impression that people here want to use genetic testing as something which eliminates everything radically (which you can’t do in breeding) Breeding is always a risk and an art to balance the risks… And genetic tests should be used as a tool for educated breeding and not as an elimination instrument for anything anybody might imagine… Yes they are great to eliminate affecteds in recessive diseases but they are not a miracle… And they are certainly not good if they are used to reduce genetic variety… In fact they are helping to preserve genetic variety…
But as I said obviously some (few) people here in this thread are thinking different… good for them

[Mara]

@Manni01

I think I will leave this discussion… I started it because I think its great that the stallion owner went public with it!! I love transparency. You can interpret whatever you want to want.
Last night one of my favorite broodmares died because of Birthcomplications and left a gorgeous 1 day old filly. Breeding is not for the faint of heart and there are millions of risks.
If you don’t look at Genetic testing as a big relieve for reducing at least some of the risks that ok. thats your opinion.
But its really a waste of time to keep this discussion running… This is not providing information but people only insist on their points.
I pray right now that the owners of this filly can work out this situation… Good luck with all your opionions…

Condolences…I’m so sorry about your mare.

[JB]

First, I am terribly, terribly sorry about your mare. No breeder should have to endure that

@Manni01

Yes you do… I had the impression that people here want to use genetic testing as something which eliminates everything radically (which you can’t do in breeding)

As has been the case on most of this thread, you are clearly not understanding what people are saying. Not me, and not others. I haven’t seen a single person on this thread say that testing should be used to cull all, or even any, WFFS carriers. Not one.

[JB]

Until now LOL

@xQHDQ

I think the mare that was positive and was going to be bred to Sternlicht should not be used for breeding at all.

So you are one who feels all carriers should be culled from the breeding pool? No judgement, that opinion is yours, I just want to understand.

[vineyridge]

@JB

Until now LOL

So you are one who feels all carriers should be culled from the breeding pool? No judgement, that opinion is yours, I just want to understand.

I personally think they should. Is performance a good enough reason to spread the gene throughout the whole breeding population when it can be eradicated? Unless people are willing to not breed carriers, the carriers will pass on the gene to half of their foals. Even with genetic testing for each foal, so it will either be a carrier or not, the gene potentially continues to spread every time a carrier is bred.

No horse is so perfect that not breeding it will change the whole population, while breeding it can.

If there were a way to test fetuses and abort the carriers before they were ever born, and all mare owners would do it, then I’d say by all means breed the carriers. But just how likely is that?

[Manni01]

@Mara

Condolences…I’m so sorry about your mare.

Thank you I did sell her 5 years ago but always stayed in contact with the new owners …

[Jealoushe]

Interesting, should be gelded IMO.

[Albion]

@Manni01

This has been around for a long time and other then dead foals, so far nobody was concerned about problems carriers might have…

I’m sorry, what? We have a COTH thread from less than 10 years ago (one I remember when it was going on!) where a number of posters express doubt about WFFS. One of them, ahf, has already come onto this thread & admitted that s/he thought the test was simply a money grab at the time (and has since changed his/her mind).

Please don’t make up history to suit your narrative. This has not “been around for a long time,” except according to the scientist who developed the test - which many WB breeders objected to. But, Manni, from viewing threads you’re involved in on the part of the board & the dressage board, you seem to like to “imagine” what other posters are saying in creative ways. With that, I’ll bow out. I don’t have the energy to argue with someone who is so insistent on willfully misreading - with malicious intent - sentences on an online BB.

[Albion]

@vineyridge

I personally think they should. Is performance a good enough reason to spread the gene throughout the whole breeding population when it can be eradicated? Unless people are willing to not breed carriers, the carriers will pass on the gene to half of their foals. Even with genetic testing for each foal, so it will either be a carrier or not, the gene potentially continues to spread every time a carrier is bred.

No horse is so perfect that not breeding it will change the whole population, while breeding it can.

If there were a way to test fetuses and abort the carriers before they were ever born, and all mare owners would do it, then I’d say by all means breed the carriers. But just how likely is that?

Yeah, but this is silly - there are some genes (like the one that causes frame) that have absolutely zero effects (other than making pretty coat patterns) in hetero form, and are lethal in homozygous form. It’s nice to say “NO HORSE WITH A GENETIC THING THAT COULD POTENTIALLY BE FATAL IN HOMOZYGOUS FORM SHOULD BE BRED!”. Flip side is you might actually be culling a lot of nice individuals (and we haven’t even gotten to the point of mapping all genes in the horse, so who knows what else lurks that’s OK in hetero form & not OK when homozygous?). We need to think about what “CARRIER” status ACTUALLY means (which is what I think a lot of people on this thread are advocating for)/ As far as I’m aware, no horses that carry frame have been reported to have side effects, unlike HYPP N/H horses.

[JB]

IMHO it is very unlikely to have a single gene populate through an entire population as large as the WB pool, especially since the homozygous form is lethal before that individual ever has a chance to reproduce even once.

To relate that to something we already know - Frame Overo - that is a highly sought after gene in the APHA world. Homozygous foals are 100% preventable with proper testing. Heterozygous individuals are perfectly healthy.

If hetero WWFS horses prove (or all but prove) to be perfectly healthy, it doesn’t seem necessary to cull all carriers from the breeding population.

If hetero WFFS proves to have a high enough risk of health complications as the horse gets older, that would warrant serious consideration to cull carriers from breeding stock.

If hetero WFFS ends up being something that might give a carrier a competitive advantage, which is where HERDA currently sits, then things get trickier. For all we know, there may already be a mutation which has worked its way into certain lines to the point that it’s giving them a competitive advantage. Mutations happen all the time, and when you start breeding on a performance bias, you are undoubtedly selecting for 1 or more mutations without having any understanding of what they are. Fortunately, most mutations don’t pose health risks.

Unfortunately, some do, even in the heterozygous state. The mutation which results in the Silver dilution coat color also causes eye abnormalities. Heterozygous horses tend to have/develop cysts, while homozygous horses end up with MCOA (multiple congenital ocular anomalies). Cysts aren’t something the horse is born with. They develop over time.

I do think carriers should be removed from the breeding pool for now, until there is enough information on older carriers who don’t show any increased risk for diseases or, more likely, injuries since this is a connective tissue disorder. That appears to be the route Hilltop is taking based on their statement of “until we know more”.

[trubandloki]

@JB

I do think carriers should be removed from the breeding pool for now, until there is enough information on older carriers who don’t show any increased risk for diseases or, more likely, injuries since this is a connective tissue disorder. That appears to be the route Hilltop is taking based on their statement of “until we know more”.

This is my thinking too.

[Joanne]

@Manni01

I think I will leave this discussion… I started it because I think its great that the stallion owner went public with it!! I love transparency.

I don’t think it was the message; it was the messenger.

[cloudyandcallie]

Well I thank Hilltop for doing the right thing.

[Denali6298]

I understand genetics on a basic level and I am new compared to the likes of JB and others to breeding. My question is, if people kept breeding to a carrier, wouldn’t the pool of non-carriers begin to shrink?

[halt]

@Denali6298

I understand genetics on a basic level and I am new compared to the likes of JB and others to breeding. My question is, if people kept breeding to a carrier, wouldn’t the pool of non-carriers begin to shrink?

not quite – if you breed to a carrier and your horse is a non-carrier, the offspring has a 50% chance of being a carrier.

you can see how, even with dozens of generations of non-affected individuals, there can still be carriers perpetrating a family line.