Imported horse not as described, seller blaming shipping on severe behavior change. WWYD

[foursocks]

OP- it sounds like you have a more complicated horse, psychologically, than you bargained for, but it also sounds like all of these issues may be part of this particular package and that there are solutions. Hopefully you can figure each other out and go on to build trust and a good partnership.

My two current horses are both imported. One was 11 years ago, the other was 2. Both are WBs with very little blood- you have to go back several generations to find any TB, which is a blessing and a curse. The blessing part is that they are usually easy to ride down- as McGurk points out (many/most?) TBs have no bottom. The curse is that they don’t have that lovely TB brain that wants to connect and they both think their stamina is about 50% of what it actually is- while a TB thinks their stamina is 500% more than it is. Communication is a bit like clear water (TB) versus somewhat more of a gel (at least for my two WBs, I don’t want to generalize too much, since there is so much variation across that collection of breeds and types!).

None of this is to say my guys aren’t perfect for me- I adore them both, but it took me a while to figure out the first one, and even longer for the new one. The first one survived his crossing pretty well- he arrived in good shape, and was able to settle in and sort out his feelings pretty quickly. He was (and is) very businesslike and had not much personality when I got him, as he had been an ungelded young horse in a very busy sales program, not a spoiled ammy horse. He quickly figured out that being an ammy horse is the bomb, but retains his businesslike approach to stuff. If I ride him the way I need to (balanced, forward, working over his back) he’ll jump a house- any distance, any situation. If I make his job confusing or too hard he’ll stop. Simple (except the fact that I’m an ammy and sometimes do dumb ammy stuff, but this boy has made me a MUCH better rider).

My second one came off the trailer looking like he’d been beaten and starved (neither of which was the case!). He was so scared and worried and wound into a little ball it was shocking. It took me (and my trainer) quite a bit longer to figure him out, and to work through the issues. A big one was the TINY amount of ulcers he developed, probably from his trip- from his over-the-top ulcery behavior everyone thought the scope would show a riddled gut. No. Two teensy, tiny little areas were enough to make him feel like he was going to die.

Poor little guy! We treated that and things improved, but he was still pretty scary to jump- he’s very, very, VERY x 100 spooky and he was used to being ridden by a big pro who would lift the horse’s head up, get him moving forward, and then just very matter-of-factly go to the jumps. He goes from that to little ammy me, sort of floating the reins so horse is on the forehand and his extremely powerful hind end is rocket launching us over- and then he would often do a huge buck on the back side. Or, he is spooking so hard we don’t actually get over the jump in the first place. I’m a fairly good rider and very experienced with difficult horses, but this one took us several months to figure out. He didn’t get me off more than a couple of times, but one of those was after he leaped a pole like he was fleeing a fire.

Like my first boy, this one is not actually difficult, it turns out, he just needed to be ridden very differently AND he needed to build trust in me. But while a good TB will seek out that bond and trust, and then try their heart out, my two are a bit more passive about it- if I ride like crap they aren’t necessarily going to fill in my gaps. If I ride well they will do anything for me. All of this is to say that it takes time- sometimes very little and things click and you can meet each other on even ground and get to work, and sometimes months, which can be disheartening. I was not sure my second horse was a good match for me and was fully prepared to sell hs brilliant self if needed, but I’m so glad I decided to try to work through it. I love and appreciate him now, in all his spooky dingbatness, and have a lot of fun with him.

So, TLDR- stick with it and hopefully you can find the keys and enjoy your boy.

[findeight]

@foursocks

Communication is a bit like clear water (TB) versus somewhat more of a gel (WB)

Never heard that expressed so clearly and so dead on target

[ParadoxFarm]

@McGurk

My ISH mare will not only stop, she’ll look back at me as if to say “Bish, how 'bought you get off?”

Okay, I had to giggle at this.

[paintedpennypony]

I’ve loved all the TBs and WBs that were in my life before I bought my first horse while I was in grad school — a 2yo APHA filly. I was always so certain that my first horse was going to be a TB but when I saw her I immediately fell in love.

She is incredible and has taught me so much. She has the most expressive and sweet personality of any horse I’ve ever met and she TRIES. Sometimes we have to have a discussion about whatever it is I’m asking of her but we always come to an agreement lol. I’ve always been a very confident rider but she has made me even more confident just by how purely good natured she is.

Anyways, I’ll climb down off my stockhorse soapbox. Not many amateurs I’ve met “need” a WB for their purposes and would be much better off with a QH type.

[FjordBCRF]

Of no help to the OP, when I was in the UK for work, I got to go riding through the Peak District with a friend/colleague who also rode. I got paired with a massive, grey ISH. What a blast. When we go into the hilly part and off the roads, I felt him get ready to GO. I felt like I was riding Shadowfax through the Shire! I wish I had been able to relax a bit more about going mach speed on a horse I didn’t know, but it was still an amazing experience.

[MrsFitzDarcy_amp_Feliks]

@FjordBCRF

I got to go riding through the Peak District

Did you go see the stately home of the Duke and Duchess of Devonshire? The one they used in the film Pride and Prejudice? I am dying to go there.

[TwiSedai]

I have an ID cross (half Irish draught, quarter perch, quarter TB) and I ADORE him now, but he was not easy in the beginning. Not imported or anything. Had a stubborn streak a mile wide. His evasion of choice was to just shut down. Not a single step forward, sideways, anything was to be had if he felt the least bit unsure or off balance or just didn’t want to do it. Reactive, nervous guy too. Spooks were mild, but lots of things made him a bit nervous and tense.

Now, after lots of careful training and a bit of out of the box thinking, I have this bold, forward almost to the point of hot guy. Cantering is not his favorite, so that’s still a work in progress, but we now have both leads consistently and he WANTS to go. He’s so light off the aids, I can practically just think “trot” and off we go. The first few months, I wasn’t sure if we would ever even get a decent trot, let alone cantering little jumps, so huge progress. And he’s a blast on the trails. Not a chill, plodding trail horse, but a “let’s power walk, then slide down this long steep muddy bank into the creek, go down the river then trail blaze through this bog with crazy footing” type.

Point being, everything I’ve heard is that these guys are smart as heck, and can be as sensitive as a TB. I think that if you make sure your guy is physically feeling okay first (ulcers for sure, this all screams ulcers to me), then pretend he knows absolutely nothing at all, set your boundaries and make everything clear so he knows exactly what is expected of him and just take your time, you might be surprised with what you get. I sure was.

[TheJenners]

@Impractical_Horsewoman

What expectations are you setting for him? It also sounds you’re not working with a trainer. Do you think having someone else look at him and work with him might help?

@GraceLikeRain

Personally, I’d send horse to a low key but fairly active training barn with a heated ring, put shoes back on, scope for ulcers, and if everything looks clear have a trainer start putting the horse back into a routine even if that’s light lunging and tack walking. Either the horse will settle in or you actually have a horse that has no foundation and all of the cookies and coddling aren’t going to put on the foundation the horse needs to process horse life.

Just want to say that Irish horses, especially those with more blood, can get bored and into shenanigans when left to their own devices for too long. Sometimes I just close my eyes and say “make good choices” as I take the halter off my spicy IDSH mare at turn out… My big ID filly now, she is definitely more my speed. My IDSH mare has Banks Fee Daniel up close and while he’s “RID” by registry, by breeding he has a lot of blood and he was known for being hot and passing it down. At her inspection, where she was not at all lady-like, the scribe came up and asked if she had BFD in her pedigree and said she reminded her of her BFD gelding and said they were like that.

@beowulf

If I wanted an ammy friendly Irish I’d look into Steeped in Luck, Touch of the Blues, or Bridon Belfry. No idea of availability and I may be dated in these suggestions as they’re based on horses I rode 10+ years ago, but these horses tended to smooth out some rough mares that I knew.

I like what I’m seeing from Epona’s Amhran Mo Chroi, but I have zero personal experience with him. He’s just been on my radar for a few years if I ever got the right mare. He’s a nice mover for an RID.

My big ID filly is his, and I can attest - very much a good brain. He’s currently standing at a h/j barn after playing at an eventing barn last year.

I can tell you that most of the folks who import these big ID and IDx horses tend to be very overhorsed. It’s a different world over there. I agree he should be put with a trainer instead of pampered. By all means, get him vetted, heck treat him for ulcers without the scope if you want, but the caliber of rider of there? Not at all the same. I mean, I wish I had balls 1/10th the size of the average amateur rider.

[fanfayre]

@TheJenners

Banks Fee Daniel up close

Ha!!! My IDSH has BFD, but GG-sire -is that close enough? Of course, he’s also out of a TB and his sire was 1/2 TB too, but for a 16.3+ guy, he can teleport unbelievably quickly
NOW I know where he gets it from, and at 20 I doubt he’s going to change. It’s a good thing he’s so sweet, especially he’s now (for all intents and purposes) useless and retired

[Renn_aissance]

@TheJenners

Just want to say that Irish horses, especially those with more blood, can get bored and into shenanigans when left to their own devices for too long.

They don’t even need to have a great deal of blood. The trouble is that they have a great deal of brain, and either they are internalizers who are “quirky” or “anxious” or “difficult” or “hotheaded,” or they are externalizers whose curiosity leads them to do things like take apart the barn to see how it works.

I have the latter type, but we suspect him to have a healthy infusion of Connemara pony in there somewhere. I worked for a barn that imported Irish horses for hunting and eventing and have ridden my fair share of the former.

Agree with everyone else that this horse needs a job and a routine to give him some stability and in six months of living within consistent expectations, plus or minus a round of GastroGard, he’s likely to demonstrate better citizenship.

[red_mares]

I’ve gotten that look many times from my former Amish pony that’s likely a Morgan/racing pony mix. As a driving pony, she’s like ‘OK, let’s go, the groceries are getting warm.’ Convincing her to walk is worse than convincing the Hackneys to walk. She stands like a statue for you to hook & get in, but Every Single Time you start off she short steps like a Paso, gets humpy and threatens to buck. After a 2-3 minute show, she’s fine.

She was an under saddle lesson pony for while, but decided she’s done with that. My trainer’s tiny 6 yro niece graduated to actual walk-trot classes the end of last season. After one show, he said “Margie would be perfect for Sally, it would be so cute, if I could just get her to quit bucking.” Do you like this kid?

[BeeHoney]

While I think that everyone’s experiences are helpful, I think that the best thing to focus on is what to do now. I think a solid routine, quiet and trusting turnout friends, plenty of turnout, a solid diet (plenty of hay, not excessive grain) are all super important and exactly what you are doing.

Secondly, I think that when you have a horse that might have had a “feral” upbringing, those horses can be more sensitive to bad experiences. A horse that has had a close relationship with humans its whole life tends to write off a bad experience with humans as a one off. A horse with less handing and less of a relationship with humans (and that is needle shy to begin with) can end up taking something like needing a bunch of shots or blood draws as a breach of trust. I think the best way to deal with that is a regular, very predictable daily handling routine. Bring in, tie in same place, feed treat, curry, brush, pick feet, comb mane/tail, put some tack on, feed treat, take tack off, etc. I think the use of treats in this instance is very appropriate.

I agree with others that Irish Draughts are not great examples of the traditional draft temperament. I have multiple IDs and crosses and they are sturdy, hardworking horses that can be very opinionated as well as hot and spooky at times. They are athletic and tireless horses, but really different from draft crosses.

I agree that it’s only fair to give a young horse time to settle and to be methodical in supporting their adjustment. And I hear you that you are here for reassurance. However, I also believe in taking horses at face value and being careful not to make excuses for them to preserve unrealistic hopes. Maybe down the line this horse will turn into a different animal, but that’s a big “if.” If after two and half months this horse is still pretty far from being the horse that you want (and is unrideable, despite having a history of being ridden), I’d recommend making at least tentative plans to re-sell. Irish Draughts often do better in work with structure and exercise, so that might look like using a professional program to have him re-started.

[Mcl1]

@BeeHoney I was just typing out a similar post when I saw yours.

I think you are spot on with the feral horse thing. I believe the OP said the horse is needle shy. I have a mustang who has been domestic for less than a year, he is very sweet and gentle with me but he is wary of strangers and very needle shy. Every single time he has to get a shot, get his feet down, etc. it takes him at least a week, often longer, to warm back up to me (his most trusted person)…first time he got a dental he wouldn’t even let me touch him for over a week. And that is just getting a shot, at home, no other stress - I can’t imagine what he would do if he was shipped into a new environment, handled by strangers, etc. Meanwhile my TB could experience the worst handling of all time and would just bounce right back immediately. There is just no built in resiliency with more feral horses - it takes a long time to build trust and it takes barely anything to lose it.

The only thing I have found to “fix” it is exactly what was said above - stick to a routine and give it time.

[ShellR88]

Thanks, the slow and friendly approach has gotten me much further than being overly firm so far. He’s sensitive and clearly wants to trust us but he has it in his head something is going to happen to him. He’s definitely better than day one, just going to be a slow restart. Once I can get a better grasp of where he is at with groundwork I’ll involve another experience person if needed. I’m expecting him to be very business like under saddle he just didn’t get fussed on over there. Think he was sedated for shoeing/clipping/bathing so he never really acclimated.
He did trailer lovely not sedated.
He’s enjoying just being a horse at a quiet barn with buddies and tons of turnout and hay
We’ll see!

[Zevida]

@FromTheGalaxy

This thread has certainly been enlightening to me! I was considering breeding my TB mare to an ID for her next foal for a more ammy friendly creature, and now I may reconsider She had a 1/2 Connemara foal in 2023 who is wicked athletic and good brained, but soooo cheeky. Good to know the IDs are basically the same but in a larger package!

I have an IDSH (ID x Canadian WB) and I cannot relate to the comments made in this thread! My experience with him has been nothing but a delight - smart, sweet, and just tries so hard, so willing and completely honest. My trainer and clinician love him and wish they could clone him for their other AA clients (though in a smaller package - he’s 17’2-3). As he’s coming 15 I daydream about buying a young ID or IDSH or even trying to breed a copy of him - his sire to another WBxTB mare. He’s truly been an incredible partner and I can’t speak highly enough of him!

[reefy]

@TheJenners

Banks Fee Daniel up close

That is interesting! He was my IDSH mare’s sire and she was the perfect temperament for an amateur (me!). I lost her a year and a few months ago, broke my heart. I trusted her implicitly to take care of me.

[fanfayre]

I don’t want to imply my guy was a terrible ride. Far from it!

He was an absolute MACHINE on cross-country (I think he had 1! stop in all his career [up to preliminary]) with his various riders and was pretty impressive in the dressage ring too, but in his downtime you’d better be on your toes

[TheJenners]

Well one horse in a pedigree isn’t the only contributor, obviously. But every Irish breeder I talk to has said the same thing about the line. YMMV.

[MapleFarm]

Just a quick side question - Steeped in Luck is still standing and I’ve been considering him for a lovely conformed TB who is spicier than I like. She didn’t have a record due to a head injury at a very young age but her breeding is for sport. Did you have experience with TBx with him? Anything else you can add about his progeny? Thank you I know it’s a little bit of a non sequitur…

[Zevida]

@MapleFarm

Just a quick side question - Steeped in Luck is still standing and I’ve been considering him for a lovely conformed TB who is spicier than I like. She didn’t have a record due to a head injury at a very young age but her breeding is for sport. Did you have experience with TBx with him? Anything else you can add about his progeny? Thank you I know it’s a little bit of a non sequitur…

Sent you a DM (I think!)