Improving canter on young horse? Update post #49

[Xanthoria]

@2bayboys

I have a rising 4yo

He’s been checked by a vet and her only recommendation was to try a course of Robaxin to counter any body soreness that might be present just because he had no base of fitness to begin with. He’s been on Robaxin for a week and I’ve seen no noticeable change.

Hm, either he’s doing too much work or your vets a little drug happy but he shouldn’t need a course of robaxin at age 4 for muscle soreness caused by work IMO.

If he’s frisky after days off first make sure he’s getting plenty turnout (24/7 ideally) in an appropriate group, then usually people lunge for a few mins to take the edge off if horse is still bucky etc.

What isn’t fun is a very fit baby with not enough training to control it.

I stick with 1 day per week per year of age - IOW 4 days a week for a 4 yr old. You could give him three days off spaced thru the week to achieve that. And at age 4 the sessions are fairly short and straightforward.

[GraceLikeRain]

I am not surprised that a 15.1 hony who can do a good canter on the line wants to break under saddle with an adult in the tack. Even a balanced light adult is still a very different feeling and requires a different level of balance. Keep your expectations low.

If you go forward, straightness will come with strength. The last thing a young horse needs is to feel shut down in the canter because they are asked for too much or constantly corrected for a wrong lead.

[2bayboys]

@bear necessities

Agreed on all counts here - listen to the hony. I would not be feeling pressure to canter at this juncture and if I did canter it would be a flat, grassy area, let the added natural impulsion of the great outdoors help you out. Main goals should be forward when I apply leg and try to be reasonably straight for 4-6 strides at a time. If that’s too much than he’s not ready and needs more time to figure out balance and coordination at the walk & trot.

May also need front shoes, especially if the footing is not ideal. It’s a simple fix and I wouldn’t want to hinder my young horse’s training with bad associations this early in the game.

Also, he’s totally adorable

Thanks to everybody for the reminder to get out of the ring and gallop a bit. Yesterday we did just that on my long gradual hill and he had no problem at all maintaining the gait. So I’ll confine my canter work to outside for now and check back in on the arena in a month or so.

I am a teeny bit surprised at the number of people who think that expecting a well developed 4yo to canter under saddle with a 120 pound experienced rider is just too much. Obviously it is too much for this particular horse at this particular stage, which is why I want to help him along if I can. I deliberately waited to start this horse until this year, instead of at 3, because I wanted him to bulk up a bit. In Europe I could look at an endless supply of 4yo horses jumping around a course of fences with a 6-foot rider, which is probably part of the reason they have no problem selling their 4yo’s to the US market.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

@2bayboys

Thanks to everybody for the reminder to get out of the ring and gallop a bit. Yesterday we did just that on my long gradual hill and he had no problem at all maintaining the gait. So I’ll confine my canter work to outside for now and check back in on the arena in a month or so.

I am a teeny bit surprised at the number of people who think that expecting a well developed 4yo to canter under saddle with a 120 pound experienced rider is just too much. Obviously it is too much for this particular horse at this particular stage, which is why I want to help him along if I can. I deliberately waited to start this horse until this year, instead of at 3, because I wanted him to bulk up a bit. In Europe I could look at an endless supply of 4yo horses jumping around a course of fences with a 6-foot rider, which is probably part of the reason they have no problem selling their 4yo’s to the US market.

A lot of those European horses are actually NOT well started. Semi feral actually. Just really good riders on them. (The holes in the training you have to go back and fill in are often substantial—-and I’ve known several who were fried worse than any OTTB).

Your horse is just not strong enough YET. I didn’t say it was because of his age…it is because of what he is telling you. I jump my 4 year olds (not huge fences but most are doing 2’6”-2’9” relatively quickly. Lots of people do not. (I don’t jump tons of jump but find varying the work…riding 4-5 times a week is best with them—jumping a few fences once or twice a week). But my expectations are just different than yours. I don’t expect a green 4 year old to go straight right off the bat. From the videos…even at the trot, this horse is not out in front of your leg. So it is not surprising that at the canter, when you tried to straighten him, he couldn’t hold it.

I just personally find that mentally…I take it easy on my 4 year olds. I don’t care if I show them…although I might take them to a schooling show and if they are super nervous…they will go to a lot of them where we will just hang out. If they are the same at the show as they are at home…I save my money. I don’t drill on a 4 year old. They are still growing and filling out. So I want them out of the ring…and do very short training sessions…more for their mind.

But first and foremost…They have to go off my leg. I will instill that out of the ring (as they often go forward more easily). I’ll jump little things and canter off afterwards…instilling forward thinking to and from a jump. They will start learning to go to a contact (once we have forward)…and accepting of the contact. Moving laterally off one leg etc. But you adjust your expections by feel. And with the over achievers…and I’ve owned a few…I make sure to keep MY asks appropriate for their age. I find if you take your time…you will be at the same place with a 6/7 year old as the people who pushed along their 4 year olds and 5 year olds faster. So now I don’t risk the injury and don’t push them faster.

[TMares]

You yourself said he had no base fitness, OP.

[Mac123]

I don’t think anyone has said that expecting him to canter under saddle is the problem (or if they have, I missed it!).

Asking an undeveloped 4 year old to canter straight is the problem, in my opinion.

He can and should canter, but at this point it should simply be about maintaining a forward canter. Don’t worry about the lead too much, and don’t press him to be straight, because that requires a degree of strength, coordination, body awareness and response to the aids that he doesn’t have yet.

I know how hard it is to sit on a baby that doesn’t have a balanced canter and not fix it. The rhythm of the posting trot is much easier to help regulate, and crookedness never feels as apparent. The canter can feel like crap! It’s hard to let it feel like that for a while. He’ll tell you when he’s ready to work on a little straightness. Right now, breaking to the trot tells me he isn’t.

[meupatdoes]

He looks adorable, and I dont think its unreasonable at all to ask a 4yo to canter with a 120 lb rider. I also dont think he’s telling you he can’t, I think he’s just a little lazy when the going gets tough (and the going is not getting all that tough, but that is still a better brain than reactive when the going gets tough).

I just think when he gets a little disorganized, you sit down more and over ride with your hand. You’re just trying to fix it, but my advice would be hands forward, put a little loop in the rein, and three or four strides of gallop down the long side. Even just aiming for that will improve things.

I also think he not definite enough in the up canter transition, and he’s probably ready for a leeeeetle bit more expectation there. You dont need to be a jerk about it, but try to cut down on the “faster trot instead of canter” steps, and also try to have a definite CANTER the first step instead of kind of sliding up into the gait. He’s not terribly disorganized in that trot, but he’s medium disorganized, and it means you have a lower quality canter to work with.

When my horse was a 4yo w two months under saddle we too got the lecture that we can expect more of a big boy canter depart even though we are 4. So if you get more than three steps of the faster trot, walk again (try to walk within one or two strides, so he doesnt learn that he can just drag you around by the bridle), give yourself one or two walk steps to reorganize (no more, or it becomes a break/reward) and then ask for canter again. You dont have to be a rough jerk about it, just methodical, consistent, and clear. This exercise - removing the extra “faster trot” steps and walking three strides before asking again, wash rinse repeat- will improve the quality of the transition as well as his promptness and ridability to the aids.

Then, when you get a step of canter, immediately hands forward, cluck, add leg and ask for three BIG steps. This will help the canter you get in the up transition be definite and with purpose, rather than that barely-cantering-I’m-about-to-break situation you’re currently getting.

He doesnt look weak, unbalanced, or unready, I think you’re just being super forgiving and trying to help him a little too much instead of expecting him to get a little prompter and more definite. Again, you dont have to be a jerk about raising your expectation, but I think if you methodically and fairly set the bar just a little bit higher, he’ll rise to meet it without much issue.

Here is a video of me working on pretty much the exact same thing with the horse in my profile pic when he was 4 and about two months under saddle. The dressage trainer teaching the lesson is great - she really helped us, and I’ve followed and implemented her advice to this day.
Pay particular attention to what she says at 4:38. Following THAT advice has raised my expectation that little bit, and improved the canter transitions much earlier on several horses that came after.

https://youtu.be/6LLaAcHesDg

[Renn_aissance]

Deloise Noble-Strong wrote a great blog about “Bad canter in the show hunter.” It’s about developing the canter in the young horse, or specifically, developing the physical strength and coordination the horse needs to show a balanced, rhythmic, even, straight canter.

[Pokerface]

Lots of great advice has been given. 4 year olds vary greatly, and he is telling you that going forward and straight is HARD. To be fair to him, it is :lol:.

My OTTB came to me having a pretty good idea of how to go straight (turning was a whole other beast!) and kind of forward.

My WB mare (coincidentally in foal to a hony due any day now), had no idea what forward or straight was. I taught her to step into the canter and go FORWARD by hopping over a small fence and allowing/encouraging her to go forward on the landing, no matter what the lead. Made my life (and hers) so much easier! Shes got a much better canter transition than my OTTB, bless his kind little heart.

[findeight]

To me, he doesn’t look footsore but he does look a little backed off. You need to do more work on GO at the trot too. We all tend to fiddle too much with a Greenie unless you ride a bunch of them. Like to see him reaching out with his shoulder and farther up under himself under himself from behind more. Usually you want the hind hoofprint at least in the hoofprint of the front, ahead of it by at least half is better. Here he’s not even getting up to it. Simply loosening up on the face and speeding up encourages more stride. Don’t need him worried about polishing the details at the expense of forward. Need to get more go before you harness it into collection,

Do a lot of trot sets both up and down your hill along with the canter work, Once you get a gait, dont drop out of it right away or he’ll think he’s not supposed to keep it, that includes wrong leads. When you say go then take it away fiddling with it, they get discouraged and confused. Have to let them go for long enough to learn the gait and build the muscle for it.

Hes adorable and very ready for more work. He doesn’t look that small either…although you are letting him move small…if that makes sense. Move him out bigger.

[Xanthoria]

The standing martingale seems tight. It might actually be mentally restricting him, as he knows he only has an inch or two before he hits it. Here’s how to fit them: http://showringready.blogspot.com/20…ngale.html?m=1

I see a vast majority of standings adjusted too tight at shows, so it’s clear to me this has become an accepted norm. Even advertising photos show them adjusted like tie downs now.

[alibi_18]

@Xanthoria

Hm, either he’s doing too much work or your vets a little drug happy but he shouldn’t need a course of robaxin at age 4 for muscle soreness caused by work IMO.

The OP’s vet is not « drug happy »… it’s just to find out if the horse might have some sort of pain issues that they couldn’t pin point with the regular vet check they did… :rolleyes:

If he’s frisky after days off first make sure he’s getting plenty turnout (24/7 ideally) in an appropriate group, then usually people lunge for a few mins to take the edge off if horse is still bucky etc.

You see, this cannot be done in many places, for many reasons.

When I have a horse in training, I only do solo turn out because I try to avoid injuries.
They have to learn to be in stalls and to be « alone » (with friends nearby).

And unlike you, I don’t advocate taking the edges off on the lunge line as I don’t want the horses I train to believe it is correct to buck and run wildly on the lunge line.
They can do their crazy things on their own time. I prefer putting them loose somewhere.
I don’t make them run - they do it on their own, but even then, I don’t let them worked themselves into a frenzy. If they do, I hand walk them as long as it takes to calm them down.

Actually, I believe in power walking to calm horses down and get the crazy out. I do that under saddle too.

I’m boring like that.
But it makes really quiet horses who feel safe and under control.

[alibi_18]

OP, I will say like everyone else that your horse needs to go way more forward than that.

Not faster, but in front of your leg.
You seem to be giving leg cues every strides; beware.
Use your voice and you whip faster, even when lunging.
Your signals need to be prompter and clearer.

@Xanthoria

The standing martingale seems tight. It might actually be mentally restricting him, as he knows he only has an inch or two before he hits it. Here’s how to fit them: http://showringready.blogspot.com/20…ngale.html?m=1

I see a vast majority of standings adjusted too tight at shows, so it’s clear to me this has become an accepted norm. Even advertising photos show them adjusted like tie downs now.

This.

Your standing martingale seems too tight.
He’s already at the end of it while you don’t have rein contact. It should be the opposite.
The martingale should get in contact if he would raise its head way more than that and only when he evades the contact.

I’ve never use a martingale on youngsters (and I despise standing ones) as I prefer the horse to find it’s own balance and not feel restricted in any way when they start.

[Bending_Line]

Very cute! Agreed that you could lose the martingale. Do you carry a crop to give him a little tap when he starts to slow down? Even a little tap on the shoulder may keep him attentive. Also, do you ever ride him in a group where he could follow a friend who’s a little more forward? The might inspire him

[Xanthoria]

@alibi_18

The OP’s vet is not « drug happy »… it’s just to find out if the horse might have some sort of pain issues that they couldn’t pin point with the regular vet check they did… :rolleyes:

My vet would use bute for that, with no sedative side effect, but I guess YMMV. My point was that the horse shouldn’t have been using himself so hard at age 4 that he’s muscle sore enough to need robaxin: that seems a bit extreme to me. So as I said, EITHER the horse’s workload should be reduced, or the vet was off. Maybe the vet just proffered that as a last resort because OP didn’t want to reduce his workload?

@alibi_18

You see, this cannot be done in many places, for many reasons.

When I have a horse in training, I only do solo turn out because I try to avoid injuries.
They have to learn to be in stalls and to be « alone » (with friends nearby).

Yeah, which is why I said “ideally” they’d get turnout in groups. I wouldn’t board at a place where herd animals have to learn to live in a stall, and be alone for turnout. But I get that lots of people think that’s OK.

@alibi_18

And unlike you, I don’t advocate taking the edges off on the lunge line as I don’t want the horses I train to believe it is correct to buck and run wildly on the lunge line.
They can do their crazy things on their own time. I prefer putting them loose somewhere.
I don’t make them run - they do it on their own, but even then, I don’t let them worked themselves into a frenzy. If they do, I hand walk them as long as it takes to calm them down.

The thing about lunging is you don’t just stand there and let them go berserk - you can say “no, the arena is for work” while you’re safely on the ground. Then the horse gets to work after his correction, and you burn some of that energy working on the lunge. When his head is in the game, you get on.

If the horse isn’t getting enough turnout and she feels “if he has more than two days off in a row he gets quite spicy under saddle the first day back.” lungeing can be super useful. It also reinforces the control a recently started horse learned on the lunge line.

[alibi_18]

@Xanthoria

My vet would use bute for that, with no sedative side effect, but I guess YMMV. My point was that the horse shouldn’t have been using himself so hard at age 4 that he’s muscle sore enough to need robaxin: that seems a bit extreme to me. So as I said, EITHER the horse’s workload should be reduced, or the vet was off. Maybe the vet just proffered that as a last resort because OP didn’t want to reduce his workload?

Robaxin is a common muscle relaxer.
Bute is more used for skeletal issues (arthritis) and the vet thought the OP’s might have been muscle sore.

Using either Robaxin or Butazone doesn’t change the fact that this was just a test… and not a long term therapy…

And well, the vet and the OP just wanted to check if the horse was suffering from muscle pain in order to adjust the training or look further into a more precise diagnostic.

Yeah, which is why I said “ideally” they’d get turnout in groups. I wouldn’t board at a place where herd animals have to learn to live in a stall, and be alone for turnout. But I get that lots of people think that’s OK.

Your ideal is not everyone ideal.

Also « alone » in turnout doesn’t mean alone in the world… as being in a stall doesn’t mean a 24/7 « prison » either.

The thing about lunging is you don’t just stand there and let them go berserk - you can say “no, the arena is for work” while you’re safely on the ground. Then the horse gets to work after his correction, and you burn some of that energy working on the lunge. When his head is in the game, you get on.

If the horse isn’t getting enough turnout and she feels “if he has more than two days off in a row he gets quite spicy under saddle the first day back.” lungeing can be super useful. It also reinforces the control a recently started horse learned on the lunge line.

I reacted to what you wrote : « then usually people lunge for a few mins to take the edge off if horse is still bucky etc. » which doesn’t say anything about any sort of training going on. This expression is usually used to talk about letting the horse buck and run on the lunge line.

The horse could get 24/7 turnout and still be fresh after being off duty for 2-3 day.
Horse don’t train themselves in the field.

[alibi_18]

@Xanthoria

My vet would use bute for that, with no sedative side effect, but I guess YMMV. My point was that the horse shouldn’t have been using himself so hard at age 4 that he’s muscle sore enough to need robaxin: that seems a bit extreme to me. So as I said, EITHER the horse’s workload should be reduced, or the vet was off. Maybe the vet just proffered that as a last resort because OP didn’t want to reduce his workload?

You are assuming a lot here…

Robaxin is a common muscular relaxer while Butazone is used more for skeletal issues.

The vet thought it was surely more a muscular problem than a skeletal one (arthritis is rare at that age).

The horse DOESN’T need Robaxin and won’t live on that for the rest of its life.

Like your vet would have done with Bute, it is JUST a test.

Yeah, which is why I said “ideally” they’d get turnout in groups. I wouldn’t board at a place where herd animals have to learn to live in a stall, and be alone for turnout. But I get that lots of people think that’s OK.

« Alone » in turnout doesn’t mean there are no near, even touchable, horses around.

A stall doesn’t necessarily have to be seen as a prison.

Maybe horses shouldn’t even be ridden as it is not natural at all.

The thing about lunging is you don’t just stand there and let them go berserk - you can say “no, the arena is for work” while you’re safely on the ground. Then the horse gets to work after his correction, and you burn some of that energy working on the lunge. When his head is in the game, you get on.

I was responding to your comment : « then usually people lunge for a few mins to take the edge off if horse is still bucky etc. » Which said nothing about any training involved. Usually, this expression is used to say that people do let their horses run and buck on the lunge line.

If the horse isn’t getting enough turnout and she feels “if he has more than two days off in a row he gets quite spicy under saddle the first day back.” lungeing can be super useful. It also reinforces the control a recently started horse learned on the lunge line.

Horses can still be spicy under saddle after a few days off despite being 24-7 in large pasture.

Training isn’t something majikal that horses learn while out eating grass.

[findeight]

Fair point about the martingale. He comes up and bumps his nose on it every stride while the reins are bouncy slack. Then drops back down only to come up and hit it again. Might be a part of why he looks and moves backed off, it’s taking the forward away. He comes forward, it bumps his nose. Not the way to introduce collection to a youngster.

You are also nagging him by bumping him with your heels every step putting too much motion in your lower leg and losing any weight and stability in the Irons. Your leg swings back and heels go up into him, he come up, hits the nose band, the reins flop. Lots going on. That might light him up if he’s fresh. Sit chilly. instead of the bump, bump, bump nagging, put on some spurs and/or, use the whip. Once. Let him get forward and stay foreword, don’t take it away from him once he gets it. GO.

Dont take this personally but I am holding a coffee cup:D.

[TMares]

@findeight

Fair point about the martingale. He comes up and bumps his nose on it every stride while the reins are bouncy slack. Then drops back down only to come up and hit it again. Might be a part of why he looks and moves backed off, it’s taking the forward away. He comes forward, it bumps his nose. Not the way to introduce collection to a youngster.

You are also nagging him by bumping him with your heels every step putting too much motion in your lower leg and losing any weight and stability in the Irons. Your leg swings back and heels go up into him, he come up, hits the nose band, the reins flop. Lots going on. That might light him up if he’s fresh. Sit chilly. instead of the bump, bump, bump nagging, put on some spurs and/or, use the whip. Once. Let him get forward and stay foreword, don’t take it away from him once he gets it. GO.

Dont take this personally but I am holding a coffee cup:D.

Me too ride that horse forward. And he’s a heavy baby. Please put front shoes on him.

[Xanthoria]

@alibi_18

Robaxin is a common muscle relaxer.
Bute is more used for skeletal issues (arthritis) and the vet thought the OP’s might have been muscle sore.

Actually bute is an NSAID - anti inflammatory and analgesic. So, can be used for muscle pain. But Robaxin would be another good choice - I mentioned bute because you said they used drugs “just to find out if the horse might have some sort of pain issues that they couldn’t pin point with the regular vet check they did…” and the OP said “try a course of Robaxin to counter any body soreness that might be present” and “any kind of body soreness” might not be muscular, hence bute being my suggestion.

Obviously OP and her vet know horse and situation better than us tho, so all this discussion is moot

@alibi_18

Using either Robaxin or Butazone doesn’t change the fact that this was just a test… and not a long term therapy…

To be fair, I didn’t say or imply it was long term, neither did OP…?

@alibi_18

And well, the vet and the OP just wanted to check if the horse was suffering from muscle pain in order to adjust the training or look further into a more precise diagnostic.

Sure, totally fine, I don’t know the OP or their vet so we don’t now how the conversation went. But my point, to reiterate, was that if a baby horse is muscle sore from work, perhaps the work should be scaled back.

@alibi_18

Your ideal is not everyone ideal.

I wasn’t referencing “my” ideal, I was referencing a (scientifically proven and accepted) ideal for the horse, an animal designed for movement who requires social activity for the sake of their mental and physical health. Yes indeed, many horses survive a long time in stalls but yes indeed we do see many signs that it’s less ideal for them than we think. (weaving, cribbing, windsucking, being extra spicy and a host of other issue)

@alibi_18

Also « alone » in turnout doesn’t mean alone in the world… as being in a stall doesn’t mean a 24/7 « prison » either…

Eh - you’re exaggerating my words. No need - go back and read what I actually said

@alibi_18

I reacted to what you wrote : « then usually people lunge for a few mins to take the edge off if horse is still bucky etc. » which doesn’t say anything about any sort of training going on. This expression is usually used to talk about letting the horse buck and run on the lunge line.

Not in my world - lungeing means training. But I am from the UK and never saw a horse lunged or turned out in order to behave like a hooligan in the arena till I moved to the US, so that’s likely a cultural difference. We also turn out horses a lot more in the UK so perhaps that’s why we don’t need to allow hooliganism on the lunge/in arenas?

@alibi_18

The horse could get 24/7 turnout and still be fresh after being off duty for 2-3 day.

Yeah, but it’s less likely right? I’m sure you’ve experienced how much more tractable horses are when they get ample turnout.