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In utero purchase. Low IgG in foal

Sport Horse Breeding
#21

Completely agree with Simkie, you don’t seem to have any concept of how fortunate you are to have a healthy foal. I would be doing cartwheels as I sent the mare owner a thank you bouquet if I were you.
Breeding is insanely risky, you rolled the dice and came up a huge winner, win gracefully.

My last foal was literally born at the clinic with a vet attending her every second, still didn’t prevent the foal from breaking her umbilical cord in a odd spot necessitating surgery two weeks later when she didn’t dry up normally and got infected. I paid for everything and bought every single employee at the clinic lunch as a thank you.

9 Likes
#22

I mean, we have a good idea of why it happened here. And yes, you’re correct in that we don’t know for sure what happened here. And there’s no longer a way TO know. We just know that it did. Shouldn’t it possibly be split, then? Since we don’t know that it wasn’t the mother, and we don’t know that it wasn’t the baby?

And yeah, if it was for sure just a freak thing. I would be only just happy that baby was fine. But because I don’t think it was just a freak thing, but a cause and effect thing, I’m pretty upset that it happened at all in addition to baby being ok. But we have no way to know for sure if it was cause and effect, or freak. So, forgive me for not doing cartwheels for that. I’m very mixed feeling right now.

I do have a concept of having healthy foals. I grew up around my mother breeding them and seeing how things run on that end. I also have a concept of not having healthy foals and costs associated and I can tell you we never tried to induce that early, and wouldn’t have without vet supervision and guidance. Along with more precautions taken in case of this outcome. Like having colostrum on hand. And checking mare’s milk. Anything to avoid an overnight 2 grand stay at a vet hospital. Keep in mind, I understand that things happen and it could be a fluke. But I’m also seeing a very large chance this is a cause and effect. And I’m upset about it.

#23

Exactly.

So why are you so hung up on assigning blame?

Plenty of mares do not stream milk and have FPT.

Plenty of mares do stream milk and have very healthy IgG in their foals.

Failure of passive transfer just happens. Even when things are perfect. It absolutely could have happened without the domperidone. It could have happened if not one drop of milk was spilled before the foal first sucked.

As you’ve said above–you have no way to know.

And failure of passive transfer isn’t “freak.” “Freak” is a foal stepping just the wrong way on a manicured lawn and shattering a pastern. FTP is a common issue. Which is why we test IgG after foaling…even when everything has gone exactly by the book.

5 Likes
#24

It’s not necessarily about assigning blame. It’s about saying hey, this happened and it was possibly caused by this and why am I the one paying the bill? And yes, it ‘could’ have happened without the domperidone. But it didn’t. And there’s a big warning on it. So… again. Why? Especially when making milk hasn’t been an issue in the past for this mare, and the vet was saying not to worry and to be patient. I just feel like risk didn’t outweigh benefit in this case. And here’s the end result. Possibly. No proof of course.

I will say, having this discussion on here did point out that there is a possibility it would have happened anyway. I still really don’t think so. And it’s not a choice I would have made if it were my own mare unless the vet recommended it. I am definitely more open to at least splitting that cost as we have no real way of knowing if it was mare or foal.

#25

Because it is YOUR HORSE.

You have no idea what would have happened if the domperidone had not been given.

5 Likes
#26

Since there is NO WAY for to know if this one dose had ant effect on the milk, you simply cannot assign blame. Especially in a situation with so many variables. I know of several breeders who give plasma as a normal protocol.

Focus on the fact that you have a healthy foal, wrap your head around the fact that there is no “answer” to the question of “cause”. Pay the the bill and move on. The cost of this is nothing in the long haul.

6 Likes
#27

I mean every time my horse needs non routine vet care while he’s boarded I can come up with a possible cause that would put the blame on the barn owner, but that would be silly. I still have to pay my horse’s vet bill.

I’m sorry you have an unexpected vet bill. They suck.

2 Likes
#28

But as the studies I posted show, the odds of it being that, are really pretty darn low.

8 out of 9 foals in that one study whose dams were NOT given domperidone, had FPT. Why? I have no idea the details of the study, but clearly dom wasn’t in the picture.

The mare’s milk was (I assume) not tested. For all you know, it was sky high in antibodies.

Take the lesson learned about what’s spelled out in contracts. Have THAT conversation with the breeder. If she offers to split the bill, or pay for it all, awesome. If she doesn’t offer, then you have to decide whether you really want this foal, or want to burn a bridge.

3 Likes
#29

No offense but if I were the breeder and you refused to pay for the plasma I would find a way to void the contract and you would no longer have a foal. Healthy or otherwise

6 Likes
#30

No offense, but if I was the breeder and I did something with the potential to cause this. I’d foot the bill.

1 Like
#31

My point is, everyone does things differently, and sees things differently. I wanted a different view, some insight, and hopfully to learn something. I was met with some same views, and some differing views, both of which were desired. I wanted to make a more educated decision on an unclear matter. That is still very grey.

I’m not here to fight or argue, and people shouldn’t need to feel like disagreeing is invalidating or attacking. I would appreciate if we could keep further discussion more educational. It was not my intention to get people riled up, and it’s unessesary.

#32

IMHO, the biggest reason people are upset with you is that you keep coming back to feeling like 1 dose of Equidone is most likely the cause of the low IgG and subsequent need for plasma, despite several credible cites indicating otherwise, for a variety of reasons, including the fact that 1 dose, that far out, was so unlikely to have impacted anything.

In the beginning, it was a legitimate question, you were asking for information.

And then you kept coming back to “feelings” to justify why you felt the breeder is 100% at fault

That’s why people are scratching their heads

4 Likes
#33

Would you have tested IgG if the domperidone had not been given?

#34

So is the vet supposed to just wait around indefinitely while the breeder and the owner determine who’s responsible for the bill? Or has the breeder already paid the vet?

#35

I agree with this 100%.

#36

I’m assuming (hoping!!) that “including the well-foal vet check after birth” included the IgG testing.

But also, I would have wanted "well-foal vet check’ clearly spelled out - what testing/checking, in what timeframe, etc. There are some breeders who don’t include IgG testing as part of any normal wellness checks, as they assume “if the foal nurses on time, he’s good”

If this breeder checked IgG ONLY because of the dom, then the OP should count her blessings on the pretty good chance that the IgG would have been that low without the dom, and would have likely resulted in a pretty sick foal pretty quickly.

1 Like
#37

Where’s the study with controls using domperidone and not? I didn’t see it if it was there. I saw mention of a study with no domperidone. For it to be a valid study proving domperidone does not cause this despite the warning label, there needs to be one where it is both used and not.

Also, the mare did lactate really well. That alone is enough. She was not lactating prior to the dose, or after the dose stopped. The main cause, again, no matter where I look, including that study, is early lactation.

I do understand and hear what’s being said. And yes, I agree it’s possible the med didn’t cause this. But it seems too coincidental when it’s not been an issue prior with this mare.

It’s also unclear to me when she’s actually mine, just yet. The other half of what’s owed is just due before she leaves, and the first half is already paid. I wasn’t even attempted to be contacted prior to them going to the vet, I was just updated that it had happened after the fact. I get to pick her registered name, but they picked her barn name. And I don’t know what’s normal on that, just something I noticed and kinda left me going… well that’s not something I really like but I guess it’s not up to me. Like, it doesn’t really feel like she’s mine yet? If that makes sense.

Me coming on here and trying to learn and understand things is so I can actually have a conversation with the owner and get things figured out cordially. I just wanted to understand the other side of things as well so I wasn’t just all one sided.

And the vets not really waiting. Last time I called, the invoice wasn’t ready yet.

#38

Time is of the essence when it comes to foals. Waiting could have resulted in you not having a foal.

3 Likes
#39

…wtf? I’m sorry, but are you serious? You can call her whatever you like. Choose a barn name now and tell them that’s what it will be. Or call her what you want when she’s weaned and you pick her up. They might be calling her something, but that doesn’t mean it’s her name & you have to use it.

Do you have anyone with experience in horses guiding you through this process? It seems you’re floundering.

13 Likes
#40

It’s all in here, clearly stating there were mares treated with Equidone, and mares not (control).

I don’t know what this means. How much milk was leaking out after 1 dose, and what does “after the dose stopped” mean? A dose is a dose, the dose doesn’t start and stop, it just IS

I’m really not what you think should be happening in a normal situation without any drugs involved, but somehow you still, despite a few studies presented, have it in your head that a single dose of dom caused the mare to leak out allllll her colostrum a whole 15 days prior to foaling.

It didn’t. Since the MARE wasn’t ready to foal for another 2 weeks, there was likely absolutely no colostrum in her whatever milk she was leaking.
Dripping milk for a day happens a LOT without low IgGs happening.

Huh? So, change the name if/when you bring her home. She doesn’t care - the breeder OR the filly. If you’ve only paid half, she ISN’T yours yet. Did you expect the breeder/current owner to wait for you to decide on a barn name while they just call her…filly?

4 Likes

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