In utero sale price

[impeggysue]

I bred my mare this year (due in April) to produce my next riding horse. I had no intention of selling the foal. However, I rode my mare in a couple of clinics before she got too pregnant and ever since the trainer at the barn has been bugging me about selling her the foal. I ignored it at first as I didn’t take her seriously but she keeps asking me. Last night she asked if she could buy the foal in utero and to name my price. I am starting to entertain the idea.

How much do people sell foals for in utero? Is there a live healthy foal contract that the parties sign? Is this something breeders do?

The mare is by Werbellin and in foal to Rubignon.

Thanks for any info!

[back_in_the_saddle]

Would you want to try again if this foal sold?

A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.

I am thinking about selling my Rubinstein mare’s foal inutero but because my mare is older this very well could be her last foal and since I believe it’s a filly, it could be my next broodmare. Do I want to sell my breeding line? It’s a hard decision. Things like that are what you need to think about. Once it’s sold, it’s no longer possible for you to reap the benefits of that foal. However, the new owner would be responsible for all foal vet bills, etc…

As to price? How much are comparable foals selling for? That would be what I priced it at inutero. In my case it’s ET so the buyer would buy the foal inutero and take the recp mare now and foal her out themselves. There would be no live foal guarantee. That’s what insurance is for.

I did buy a foal inutero once and there was a contract that said the foal had to stand and nurse.

[Ticker]

You need to factor in all of your expenses up to the weaning date. I have also offered the purchase of an ET foal at six months weaned and registered at an inspection between 15-20k depending on the dam. The foal should stand and nurse for 30 days before I will complete a sale as most problems,if there are any, will be revealed by then.

[Prime_Time_Rider]

[QUOTE=back in the saddle;7878829]
Would you want to try again if this foal sold?

A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.

I am thinking about selling my Rubinstein mare’s foal inutero but because my mare is older this very well could be her last foal and since I believe it’s a filly, it could be my next broodmare. Do I want to sell my breeding line? It’s a hard decision. Things like that are what you need to think about. Once it’s sold, it’s no longer possible for you to reap the benefits of that foal. However, the new owner would be responsible for all foal vet bills, etc…

As to price? How much are comparable foals selling for? That would be what I priced it at inutero. In my case it’s ET so the buyer would buy the foal inutero and take the recp mare now and foal her out themselves. There would be no live foal guarantee. That’s what insurance is for.

I did buy a foal inutero once and there was a contract that said the foal had to stand and nurse.[/QUOTE]

I am not aware of any insurance company that will insure an unborn foal. To the best of my knowledge, the foal must be born and standing and nursing BEFORE any insurance company will insure it.

[Daventry]

@back in the saddle;7878829

In my case it’s ET so the buyer would buy the foal inutero and take the recp mare now and foal her out themselves. There would be no live foal guarantee. That’s what insurance is for.

The earliest I have ever experienced is insuring at 3 days of age…and that is with a mandatory veterinary exam and the foal can only be insured for three times the stud fee.

Normally, in utero contracts always come with a live foal guarantee, but of course, anything goes between the buyer and seller if they agree on it.

[Beaver_Breeze]

[QUOTE=Prime Time Rider;7878912]
I am not aware of any insurance company that will insure an unborn foal. To the best of my knowledge, the foal must be born and standing and nursing BEFORE any insurance company will insure it.[/QUOTE]

Prospective foal insurance.

ETA: Thoroughbred folks do this to convert a no guarantee to a live foal fee. It usually covers stands & nurses at least, and perhaps as much as 30 days after birth, and can be extended from there (say, to 12 months).

[back_in_the_saddle]

[QUOTE=Beaver Breeze;7878936]
Prospective foal insurance.

ETA: Thoroughbred folks do this to convert a no guarantee to a live foal fee. It usually covers stands & nurses at least, and perhaps as much as 30 days after birth, and can be extended from there (say, to 12 months).[/QUOTE]

Yep. I didn’t know this wasn’t common knowledge.

Here’s one company although there are many more who offer this.
http://www.jarvisinsurance.com/insurance/equine.php

[Home_Again_Farm]

I would ask your trainer to give you an offer and tell her you will consider it. In-utero contracts usually stipulate condition - usually that the foal is born viable, but not guaranteeing sex, color or even whether legs are perfect. If you decide to offer an in-utero you should draw up a carefully constructed contracted and have all details ironed out before agreeing to anything. An in-utero can work to your advantage, or it can be hard to live with if the foal of YOUR dreams arrives and someone else owns it. Hard call.

[RanchoAdobe]

Has anyone here actually tried to get a policy for prospective foal insurance? I looked with three different companies this year for two in utero’s I had that were sold. It was laughable. The value is toes to the stud fee NOT the sale price of the foal - I believe I could only get 6k worth of coverage for a 3k stud fee and an 18k foal. . The premium was almost 1/2 the coverage. And to top it off it is a mortality only policy, so it won’t cover $1 of vet bills trying to save baby. Complete waste of money. All our contracts are LFG, stand and nurse. I’ve actually never seen an in utero contract without a LFG.

[Aven]

Ever since I had a foal die in just over 24 hours due to a congenital kidney (we assume no necropsy was done) who looked very healthy at birth I am very wary of anything that says stand and nurse. She stood and nursed and looked normal for about the first 16 hours or so. Then went down hill and died as her kidney’s weren’t filtering her blood nearly enough. Technically I had a live foal, but one that was born with a defect that precluded living outside the womb.

[back_in_the_saddle]

The value is toes to the stud fee NOT the sale price of the foal - I believe I could only get 6k worth of coverage for a 3k stud fee and an 18k foal.

This is what I was quoted for a foal already on the ground. 2x stud fee only. However, if someone were to have purchased that foal, THEY would have been able to insure for the full purchase price.

As to in-utero insurance, as long as my expenses to produce the pregnancy are covered I’m good with it. I’m not looking to make money from the insurance company, I’m looking to not lose thousands if the mare aborts the fetus.

[Touchstone_Farm_Ky]

Actually I have an et foal I purchased this year. I insured the embryoe at 150 days and its insured through its first year. All you need is the breeding date and a vet to confirm the pregnancy. Jarvis Insurance agency wrote the policy. Many of the inter foals are insured here in Kentucky because of the high cost of stud fees in the thoroughbred industry. It protects both parties…

[Home_Again_Farm]

I insured the pregnancy when I was importing a mare that was in foal to a very desirable stallion who was not available to be bred here in the states. Very few companies offer that insurance, except to TBs. I used Cunningham and Cunningham. The insurance is extremely expensive and in hindsight was not a wise business move.

[RanchoAdobe]

Mary Lou - I couldn’t make the numbers work either from a business standpoint. Although it would make in utero contracts and ET foals less risky if it was reasonable.

Touchstone- would you mind letting us know the amount of insurance you received? And what the premium was that you paid? I would love to know- 6k of coverage on a 20k foals seemed worthless to me, but if you managed to get a higher value I would love to know!

Back in the Saddle- they will insure a foal that is on the ground for purchase price, but no company I talked to would insure an in utero for more than the amount tied to stud fee. Not the purchase price of the in utero.

[back_in_the_saddle]

“more than 150 days in foal rate would be 10% of the insured value. This coverage is in place until the foal reaches 30 days old.”

Update… yes as I thought… they will insure the in-utero foal for the purchase price. Vet check w/ultrasound is required so the underwriters know they are insuring a live fetus. 10% of the insured amount.

[Mistysmom]

Prices will vary and I would never purchase a foal in-utero without a good contract that both parties agree to and includes a full LFG that goes beyond just standing and nursing. Of course the risk is that you get one you want to keep :).

I agree that insuring an in-utero foal for just the stud fee x 3 is not really worth it especially when the purchase price is often much more. Once again that not all in-uteros are with just a LFG until the foal stands and nurses. All of the in-uteros I have sold in the past have been with a LFG including a full vet exam (by the purchaser’s vet) within the first 3/4 days. That is a very reasonable time to determine if the foal is healthy. This greatly reduces the risk and makes the need for insurance after the foal is vetted.

[DownYonder]

We were looking around last year at en utero options.

For an en utero WB foal - we saw base prices ranging from $5000-$6000 to $25,000, depending on pedigree and sex. (For instance, if it’s a Totilas foal out of a super mare line, then expect the price to be in the stratosphere).

Price may also depend on how much “risk” the buyer is willing to assume. Base prices usually cover “foal stands and nurses”. Add $$$ for 30-day guarantee, more $$$ for 60 day guarantee, etc.

Make sure your contract stipulates who covers what expenses. Does buyer assume all vet expenses the moment the foal if born? Or only after a certain period of time? What happens if the foal is born with “issues” and needs intensive veterinary work? Is buyer responsible for all costs? Does buyer have to pay board costs for the foal pre-weaning? Who pays to make sure the foal gets registered? If the foal is marketed as “registerable with XYZ registry”, what stipulations are there for you to make sure that happens (i.e., turning over breeding certificate, etc., to buyer)? What happens if buyer decides to back out? What happens if the buyer only wants a colt (or filly)? Do you get to keep the deposit?

We saw a fairly wide range of stipulations in the en utero contracts presented to us. Some were reasonable, some not so much. My friend ended up buying a foal already on the ground. It had the kind of pedigree she wanted, it was the sex she wanted, and it was already registered (and a premium foal). Although the price was more than she had been quoted for a similarly bred “en utero” option, she didn’t have to deal with the risks. She is going to get another foal in 2015, though, and is already looking at various en utero offerings to see what’s out there.

[back_in_the_saddle]

[QUOTE=Touchstone Farm,Ky;7879692]
Actually I have an et foal I purchased this year. I insured the embryoe at 150 days and its insured through its first year. All you need is the breeding date and a vet to confirm the pregnancy. Jarvis Insurance agency wrote the policy. Many of the inter foals are insured here in Kentucky because of the high cost of stud fees in the thoroughbred industry. It protects both parties…[/QUOTE]

Did you take possession of the ET recp mare?

[Serendipity_Farm_Spo]

Personally, in your position. I would wait until the foal is born and decide at that point if you wish to sell. sounds like you aren’t really wanting to sell and the trainer is really wanting to buy. If she is that interested she likely will wait to see the foal on the ground and then there is less risk to you.

I have sold a few in utero foals but not normally until the mare is late in foal to be safe and only took deposits on the foal per the risk that something would go wrong.