Incredible incredible horse

[slc2]

Each group has an agenda for arguing dressage came from miliitary or the carousels.

The fact that it came from the military makes it seem noble, useful and practical. The fact that it came from the artistic carousels makes it seem like it wasn’t connected with violence and war. It makes it seem as if dressage was just perfected by masters who had as their sole desire to create an art form, away from the pressures of society, without any deadline or purpose other than just to be an art form, just to create beauty. Each position is vehemently argued.

It’s most likely that dressage didn’t come from either one exclusively, and it probably in its modern form bears very little resemblance either to the carousels OR military riding.

I have talked with quite a few scholars and historians over the years on this subject, and most military historians find it hysterical that anyone did anything remotely ‘artistic’ in battle. Especially charging on heavy armored horses in the heavy cavalry period. The idea is absurd.

War, in general, wasn’t a time for anything but the crudest horsemanship. Several famous groups even charged into battle with the bits slipped from the horse’s mouths, so that a rider couldn’t turn tail at the last minute. Riding in battle is rough, dangerous and hard.

It’s a romantic fantasy we love to perpetuate in modern times, that riding in battle involves some sort of finesse or ability to exert fine control over a charging beast in a noise filled atmosphere full of gunfire. In fact, people charged along at a dead gallop and shot at eachother, and it was very hard on man and beast alike. Read some civil war journals to discuss the injuries horses received, from their own saddles, bits and spurs, in many cases, as the riders ripped around in the saddle trying to fight.

The whole idea is that war and battle is somehow glamorous and involves some sort of refined skill is something we are in love with. It was certainly skillful how riders shot at each other, or whacked eachother with swords, without cutting their reins or their own arms off, but that’s about the end of the refined skill.

In general, I would say that most of the dressage work we do has actually very little history behind it for its exact present form. I’m sure much has been borrowed from the past in bits and pieces, but the combination of extended gaits, collected gaits, piaffe, passage, pirouette, done in the form they are done today, with no coercive equipment (check out the equipment described in pluvinel’s enlightened age in his book, if you don’t believe it), with light agile blood horses, and with a rounded back and contact with the bit, is unique in history.

[kkj]

OK Dalfan and Eq Trainer I think we actually agree! I too think he is super impressive and has a great disposition. My horse and 3 would have done airs above ground etc coming into an arena environment like that. The horse is super poised for his age. My point is that he is naturally more prone to passage than the average horse. You hold him back, he is a little excited and bingo he has the inclination to passage, not to do a 180 and exit the ring or to rear or bolt or stop and balk but to slip into the beginning of a great passage. His trot in the beginning looks passagey.

I still think the rider is riding him on too tight a rein but maybe it is just for the show. Maybe the horse is best ridden that way in such an electric environment. Maybe he is ridden much differently at home. I would like to see some trot work where he stretches more to the contact, not with his head held down or long and low but just reaching more with his neck. Maybe this is how he works when he is in more familar surroundings.

[Mozart]

@kkj;2041178

OK Dalfan and Eq Trainer I think we actually agree! I too think he is super impressive and has a great disposition. My horse and 3 would have done airs above ground etc coming into an arena environment like that. The horse is super poised for his age. My point is that he is naturally more prone to passage than the average horse. You hold him back, he is a little excited and bingo he has the inclination to passage, not to do a 180 and exit the ring or to rear or bolt or stop and balk but to slip into the beginning of a great passage. His trot in the beginning looks passagey.

I still think the rider is riding him on too tight a rein but maybe it is just for the show. Maybe the horse is best ridden that way in such an electric environment. Maybe he is ridden much differently at home. I would like to see some trot work where he stretches more to the contact, not with his head held down or long and low but just reaching more with his neck.
Maybe this is how he works when he is in more familar surroundings.

OMG! I must rub my eyes in amazement (isn’t there an icon for that??) Am I seeing CONSENSUS on the dressage forum!!!

Ok quick you guys…start working on the problems in the Middle East!:lol:

[Auventera_Two]

Again, can somebody provide links or books, or anything that clearly discredit dressage’s roots in military history? I’m honestly curious! That’s something I have never heard before…hmm.

I did a quick dig and found about 3,000 sites :lol: saying that dressage “DOES” originate from military roots…so again…hmmm.

Here are a few links I found. Again, just genuinely curious here, as I’ve always been told by instructors, and in dressage books that the sport originated from battle moves. Honestly, the only site I found in the quick search that did not mention battle was the USDF site. Everything else did.

World Dressage
"The ancient Greeks were the first to practice dressage in preparation for war.”
http://www.worlddressage.com/history.htm

History of the Quadrille by Ron Smith
Specifically talks about the SRS and their military training.
http://equisearch.com/horses_riding_training/english/dressage/quadrillehistory_072506/

University of New Hampshire
Talks specifically about Cavalry and fighting battles on horseback.
http://www.equine.unh.edu/dressage.htm

What is Dressage?
Origins, History, Present State, Perversion
“What is today called competitive dressage has its origins in the military dressage that was brought to the Olympic Games; hence many horses competing in the early Olympics were presented by military officers.”
http://www.horsemanpro.com/articles2/dressage.htm

TC Equestrian Co.
“The origins of dressage began with the ancient Greeks over two thousand years ago. This finely tuned form of riding was developed for combat in war.”
http://www.tcequestrian.com/articles.htm

[SillyHorse]

slc says it is not so, therefore it is not so. What more proof could you possibly need? :lol:

[canyonoak]

Dressage began as a way to train the horse. by Canyonoak <VBG>

The horse was originally for eating.

Then, the horse was for packing goods and then–with technology–dragging loads.

Finally, someone got the idea to sit on a horse.

This required training methodology.

The horse–the vehicle of its time–was used for war; hence, the cavalry. And there was training for this, mostly dressage de campagne–training the horse for use OUTSIDE, in the country.

For pleasure and entertainment, some horses were trained beyond campagne dressage, for what we now call haute ecole.

Cavalry officers and others responsible for training horses wanted to show off what they could do: it is human to want to have competitions and decide who is best.

And it is out of this broth that modern dressage was born, became part of the Olympics, allowed the various schools (jerez, SRS, Cadre Noir) to stay alive. And for breeders to keep going, until the produce the modern athlete-- Quaterback. (just to swing around again to the thread subject)

thank you.

(sits down in seat again)

[egontoast]

I have talked with quite a few scholars and historians over the years on this subject

hehe:yes:

I have talked with many many many many Important Highly Credible Excessively Educated(WAY more educated than any of you peeps or your friends) Giant Fantastic Experts who shared with me the true origins of dressage but I am sworn to secrecy.

[Sandy_M]

To a certain extent, certainly, one would want an OBEDIENT horse in war - a horse that would go forward, when asked, regardless of gunfire, etc. Training is training is training. However, the idea that the haute ecole of dressage is based on battlefield maneuvers is, as slc says (OMIGOD, I am agreeing with slc) ridiculous. {Ah, yes, there is an enemy, collect, collect, now… capriole and kick him!! Now rear up on your hind legs and hop forward, striking at the foe! No, I don’t think so.) Perhaps one might say that MODERN (whatevertheheckthatmaybe) dressage derives MORE from the carousels, plus the 17th and 18th Century officer’s desire to show off (they sure wore fancy unis then), etc.

[slc2]

that’s a terrible shame, egon, about being sworn to secrecy.

and thanks, silly horse, for that vote of confidence, but i must shake my finger at you, for you know it’s not true.

how much the past riding had a part in dressage’s modern form is a matter of opinion, and opinion alone, and either side can present convincing information, for or against. what someone’s opinion is on any subject depends on the information they have and how they feel about things, and frankly, no one needs to convince anyone of anything here, because everyone is entitled to believe whatever they like.

i would never claim that dressage came solely from carousel riding OR military - i don’t agree with either position. as i said, i think the modern dressage borrowed bits and pieces from many sources, and is a unique combination. in a sense, there is commonality between all historical forms of riding and dressage, because if you try hard enough, you can find some similarity.

karl mikolka, on the other hand, insists military had nothing to do with the school riding or the school jumps. i don’t agree with him entirely, but the point of view is described above (why school airs are impractical in battle, his main point in one paper he wrote), and he is a far more informed scholar than me or any of us.

a good source of information is Gimbutas’ writings, and ‘The Role of the Horse in Man’s Culture and History’ is a more practical, and less romantic, review of archeological and historical information.

[mistyjewell]

Ok, not to be a nag, but can you take the topic of the orgin of dressage to a new thread? If you want more people’s opinions on it, post a thread and see what response you have, that may help you then the few people who are stil reading this thread, you might get more answers that way.

On a side note about passagy horses, I used to know a lovely FEI level horse that when he threw a temper tantrum would get “stuck” in passage." He wasn’t neary the extravagent mover this horse is, but his evasion was to passage, wonder if that’s how he’ll be, it comes naturally to him, so when in doubt, passage! lol.

[fiona]

I talk all the time with the people inside my head and they agree you can lead a horse to water but it’s pretty impossible to get him inside a tank thus debunking the military/dressage theory once and for all.

I have talked with many many many many Important Highly Credible Excessively Educated… Giant Fantastic Experts

yeah me too.

[Auventera_Two]

@slc2;2041319

that’s a terrible shame, egon, about being sworn to secrecy.

and thanks, silly horse, for that vote of confidence, but i must shake my finger at you, for you know it’s not true.

how much the past riding had a part in dressage’s modern form is a matter of opinion, and opinion alone, and either side can present convincing information, for or against. what someone’s opinion is on any subject depends on the information they have and how they feel about things, and frankly, no one needs to convince anyone of anything here, because everyone is entitled to believe whatever they like.

i would never claim that dressage came solely from carousel riding OR military - i don’t agree with either position. as i said, i think the modern dressage borrowed bits and pieces from many sources, and is a unique combination. in a sense, there is commonality between all historical forms of riding and dressage, because if you try hard enough, you can find some similarity.

karl mikolka, on the other hand, insists military had nothing to do with the school riding or the school jumps. i don’t agree with him entirely, but the point of view is described above (why school airs are impractical in battle, his main point in one paper he wrote), and he is a far more informed scholar than me or any of us.

a good source of information is Gimbutas’ writings, and ‘The Role of the Horse in Man’s Culture and History’ is a more practical, and less romantic, review of archeological and historical information.

Well, that’s a much more reasonable response, so with that, I’ll just drop the subject. Lots of opinions - info on both sides - no hard evidence either way - sounds like there isn’t much case, and not much sense debating.

[Ja_Da_Dee]

I’m sure the answer to the question “where did dressage originate” is in the same book that answers the age old question “what do the letters stand for”.

Find that book, and you will have unlimited power.

[Dalfan]

My point is that he is naturally more prone to passage than the average horse.

You can’t know this from the short video of him. But chances are he will develop a lovely P/P.

I would like to see some trot work where he stretches more to the contact, not with his head held down or long and low but just reaching more with his neck.

Watch the video again. He does offer a bit.

[fiona]

Find that book, and you will have unlimited power.

My sources tell me that Egontoast on being told to digest the contents of this worthy tome promptly ate it.

[YoungFilly]

@egontoast;2041282

hehe:yes:

I have talked with many many many many Important Highly Credible Excessively Educated(WAY more educated than any of you peeps or your friends) Giant Fantastic Experts who shared with me the true origins of dressage but I am sworn to secrecy.

Gawd, I am crying my eyes out. :lol: :lol: :lol: Some of the stuff that comes out of your mouth… err keyboard.

[egontoast]

My sources tell me that Egontoast on being told to digest the contents of this worthy tome promptly ate it.

mmmmmmmmmmmm…tommmmme

See, it’s like this: many of my …er… important…er…friends have applicable anecdotes to support all of my eccentric views. I just need to check my e-files.

Fiona , I sense some derision in your posts and I would like to remind you that I and my Important Friends, are very…um…IMPORTANT!

[SGray]

@mp;2041122

The same way they figured out that Jesus was a fair-skinned man with light-brown shoulder length hair and a neatly trimmed beard.

:lol: :winkgrin: :lol:

[fiona]

Fiona , I sense some derision in your posts

no escaping that rapier perception of yours is there? Is that Important or Impotent?

[fiona]

neatly trimmed beard.

never underestimate the credibility of a neatly trimmed beard. Talking of which are there any dressage riders with beards? are they related to religious figures?