Inspection of the Hunter Type Horse/Foal- A work in Progress

[sixpoundfarm]

:yes:I felt a response to this quote, on the KWPN Thread, needed its own spot, since it was related but Off Topic of that thread.
I have my own set of thoughts and observations, and felt it is a point that needs discussion, since breeding for the Hunter divisions is on the rise.

[QUOTE=Lynnwood;6562938]
As someone who has sent a colt through their approval process I can share my own “feelings”. We sent a colt through for Hunter approvals and TBH his qualities /faults aside it was CLEAR that there was not yet a good system in place to evaluate hunter type stallions. Some of the comments were were given like "to quiet " made it obvious that particular sect if you will of the KWPN-NA’s process needed a bit of tweaking over all.

If it were to happen again sadly at this point we’d look to other registers first to present a stallion prospect through. Which in all fairness weighs on my heart a bit because KWPN/NA is our reg of choice. Until a few changes are made or it becomes obvious that the KWPN mother ship has become just as vested in allowing the N/A division to have quality stallions approved on this continent vs always being aimed and encouraged to simply purchase frozen from European stallions.[/QUOTE]

I have come to my own conclusion that SEVERAL of the European based/influenced registries do not have the same appreciation for Hunter type horses/foals as we do here. Therefore, many of us (myself included) have been disappointed or surprised with the scores or comments our Hunter type horses have received at their keurings or inspections.

It is my opinion, that many of qualities and characteristics that we seek and reward in our Hunter horses are not what a European minded breeding program tends to be looking for.
They breed for Dressage and Jumpers. To oversimplify, that means movement with action and athleticism, joint articulation and and big, round jumpers, not so concerned with a 'pretty ’ form. Additionally, if a horse that is a stallion candidate more resembles a gelding, that’s a negative on his score card, for lack of stallion presence.

We want a Hunter horse to be more subdued, flatter moving (yet still athletic), jumping from the ‘gappy’ distance with a technique that is not super round, ‘tucked’ and the fastest time around leaving all the jumps up.

We are asking the European judges and juries to come here and judge our horses according to their breed books and standards. They don’t have a category for Hunter types over there. We have alot of them here, and its one of the biggest divisions for the US.
Several of the registries have created Hunter books to try and satisfy that niche and need, which is admirable. However, with all due respect to those judges and officials, I think that in order to better judge a hunter by US standards, they all could benefit from some additional education on what the US Hunter market really wants and rewards.
I am not talking of Line horses, but rather the horses competing in the performance hunter divisions at the higher levels. (Good, correct conformation should always be a consideration)

How can we, as breeders of Hunter horses come to a satisfying means (for everyone) to breed quality horses to a set/understood standard, yet reward the qualities we DO want in a Hunter? Rather than going home dissatisfied and upset, Is there any way we can encourage the registries to broaden their horizons with respect to a Hunter horse appreciation?

Just some thoughts to ponder and discuss civilly.

[Noms]

[QUOTE=sixpoundfarm;6564504]
:yes:I felt a response to this quote, on the KWPN Thread, needed its own spot, since it was related but Off Topic of that thread.
I have my own set of thoughts and observations, and felt it is a point that needs discussion, since breeding for the Hunter divisions is on the rise.

I have come to my own conclusion that SEVERAL of the European based/influenced registries do not have the same appreciation for Hunter type horses/foals as we do here. Therefore, many of us (myself included) have been disappointed or surprised with the scores or comments our Hunter type horses have received at their keurings or inspections.

It is my opinion, that many of qualities and characteristics that we seek and reward in our Hunter horses are not what a European minded breeding program tends to be looking for.
They breed for Dressage and Jumpers. To oversimplify, that means movement with action and athleticism, joint articulation and and big, round jumpers, not so concerned with a 'pretty ’ form. Additionally, if a horse that is a stallion candidate more resembles a gelding, that’s a negative on his score card, for lack of stallion presence.

We want a Hunter horse to be more subdued, flatter moving (yet still athletic), jumping from the ‘gappy’ distance with a technique that is not super round, ‘tucked’ and the fastest time around leaving all the jumps up.

We are asking the European judges and juries to come here and judge our horses according to their breed books and standards. They don’t have a category for Hunter types over there. We have alot of them here, and its one of the biggest divisions for the US.
Several of the registries have created Hunter books to try and satisfy that niche and need, which is admirable. However, with all due respect to those judges and officials, I think that in order to better judge a hunter by US standards, they all could benefit from some additional education on what the US Hunter market really wants and rewards.
I am not talking of Line horses, but rather the horses competing in the performance hunter divisions at the higher levels. (Good, correct conformation should always be a consideration)

How can we, as breeders of Hunter horses come to a satisfying means (for everyone) to breed quality horses to a set/understood standard, yet reward the qualities we DO want in a Hunter? Rather than going home dissatisfied and upset, Is there any way we can encourage the registries to broaden their horizons with respect to a Hunter horse appreciation?

Just some thoughts to ponder and discuss civilly.[/QUOTE]

Sixpound,
Ahh, a very timely thread. I looked at the stallions that have gone through the Silvercreek stallion test. All of the stallions that are more hunter types, that are headed into a hunter career, all scored near the bottom of the pack. I find that very disappointing !

Short of starting a separate US registry for only hunter stallions, mares and their offspring, we are fu%$#d because the Eurpoeans dont have a dang clue what qualities we find desireable in hunter horses. And probably score those qualities as faults.

I have a stallion at SC right now that is going through testing, and he is headed in the hunter direction. Waiting on pins and needles, but would not be surprised at all if he finishes last!

[Cloverbarley]

Tracy I have found the same, particularly with one registry which seems quite inflexible in being accommodating to both hunter-bred and jumper-bred horses. AHS, I have to say, appear to be far more gracious, certainly from my experience. I am not speaking of stallions btw, just mares and foals.

I recently returned from an inspection where I took a very fancy huntery colt. At that particular inspection the commentator on the microphone commented many times that this foal had been bred for the hunter market (this is something that has never been done at any other inspection site I’ve been to). Anyhow, whether it be the foal really is as nice as I think or whether the commentator was instrumental, the inspectors raved about him! It was unexpected as I’ve come to just accept that this registry does not “see” hunter-bred foals for what they are, however last week, their awesome comments came as a very welcomed surprise to me.

[Samotis]

Because of this, I did consider not taking my colt to the Old/NA inspection this weekend.

I took my now 4 year old gelding in 2008 and while he had already been weaned and showed that, the comments were he was too quiet and moved too flat. He is a hunter 100 percent. He has beautiful hunter movement and jumps slow and scoped. So it was disappointing to take him.

Now my new colt has a little more bounce to his step and is also still with mom. So he has the upper hand. We will see how he does. He is a full brother to the 4 year old, so he is a hunter type as well.

You would think that since in the US that hunters are a big thing and starting to become more breed oriented (where before it was just a horse that moved good and jumped good, no one cared about breeding) that these registries would try to cater to hunter breeders!

I know there is still a ways to go before hunter trainers know the breeding of their horses, but I think we are slowly starting to get there!

Wouldn’t that be nice to hear the breeding of our hunters as they go into the ring!

[EquusMagnificus]

I had a discussion exactly on this with our German judge at our latest Hanoverian inspection: the need to recognize and judge hunter-types appropriately.

He was very open and candid about the general lack of knowledge with regards to this discipline among his German counterparts. He was also very open to my ideas about this topic.

While I don’t have, myself, a big interest in hunters, they ARE appart of our NA market and they need to act upon this fact.

Otherwise, the feeling of our money simply flowing over the ocean, without getting appropriate services in return, just persists.

I had exactly given the example of the KWPN who recognizes, at least in part, the differences by offering a specific breeding direction for hunters.

[Samotis]

That’s great that the KWPN is acknowledging hunters, but if they don’t know what they are looking for then it doesn’t help us!!!

Just like watching the QH judgesmtrynto judge a jumping class.

Oh my gosh! Is all I can say! A:eek:

[NorthHillFarm]

[QUOTE=EquusMagnificus;6564634]
I had a discussion exactly on this with our German judge at our latest Hanoverian inspection: the need to recognize and judge hunter-types appropriately.

He was very open and candid about the general lack of knowledge with regards to this discipline among his German counterparts. He was also very open to my ideas about this topic. [/QUOTE]

I’m glad your discussion went better than mine! I tried to have this discussion with two American inspectors and my comments were not very well received. I had such a frustrating experience that I don’t think I’ll ever present a non-Hanoverian mare for inspection again.

As a HUNTER breeder, I’ve found having mares inspected is the most discouraging. I choose mares with hack winning hunter movement (among other criteria) for my program. They never seem to score well for movement despite the fact they move as a HUNTER should! It’s pretty hard to swallow when the inspectors love everything about your mare except her movement when her movement is top notch for her intended discipline.
FWIW, my foals always seem to do well though, despite being hunter bred and out of hunter type mares.
Hope we will eventually see some changes for the better for the hunter breeders out there!

[Lynnwood]

It was very discouraging on two levels. One because they found faults with him that as a hunter they should not have. How do you convince a European juror that the Hunter market would be excited about a 4 year old who jumps with fantastic hunter form yet is half asleep at the job. One of their issues that stood out was he was “to quiet” not enough presence. Although they pointed out several times that both his grand sires put great minds on their offspring and he was a lovely example.

Secondly because the gaps / intentions about the hunter program were clear before the horse ever was presented but with the amount of time/money invested pushing doggedly ahead seemed like the only choice at the time.

When his pedigree was presented and it reached the European eyes we were immediately asked for more examples of his dam line in sport …even though her sire was the FIRST stallion approved in the US by the kwpn-na( He was previously approved NRPS jumping grand prix and then imported to the US as a hunter) . The dam her self has a successful show record PAGES long all be it in the hunters…where she is most suited. It was clear they were very unfamiliar with his dam’s mother line. She was out of a mare by Running Acres who all be it old blood was a phenomenal TB hunter sire. Even after digging up pages of show records for the dam side it was clear pre- keuring that they were just not that vested in approving hunter sires from hunter based bloodlines especially non-traditional European ones. Of course this was after we’d invested the time/money into Prok x-rays ,scooping and semen evaluations all requirements per the jury.

IMHO if they are going to allow for a hunter book and hunter specific stallion approvals not just the addition/entrance of currently competing older stallions into the book. The group of peers/professionals( at least one juror member) that does the judging should be well qualified to be doing so. You would not ask a saddle seat judge to be on the panel to judge Olympic Dressage.

BTW it is not just sour grapes. The colt was gelded sold and is well on his way to a very successful small junior career. We would have loved to have seen him approved even provisionally because we adore his damline and think it deserves recognition. Yet are just as happy to see it represented in sport.

[ahf]

I have no dog in this fight, but this caught my eye.

@Lynnwood;6564938

Of course this was after we’d invested the time/money into Prok x-rays ,scooping and semen evaluations all requirements per the jury.

My registry (not the KWPN) requires extensive radiographs juried by a panel at Rood and Riddle before a colt can attend a licensing. I really had no problem with that, as having a comprehensive set of current radiographs is pretty much expected with the sale of a high end horse and could be put to use later. But scoping and then…SEMEN evaluation? That is just flat-out not needed until a colt has passed the initial level registry approval. Make the initial approval contingent on those two things AFTER the colt has been deemed worthy.

To make an aspiring stallion owner fork over those results ahead of the presentation is out of touch, and out of line. It seems more like an effort to vet an owner’s pocketbook first.

[Lynnwood]

I had no issue with the X-rays either. He was a nice colt and having them regardless of his stallion intents gave him the Prok predicate and us the ease of mind that his dam was throwing sound properly developing young horses.

The pedigree issues we did not hear about until AFTER we’d been asked to submit him for scoping and semen evaluation.

Not to mention after you go through the cost of Prok xrays and scoping the reg then charges a fee to read them?? They require them (I agree thanks for being responsible) but then charge you to submit them. “Veterinary requirements: Stallions must meetradiograph and endoscopy requirements as well as the Physical Examination described earlier. There is a $150 fee each for reading the endoscopy and radiograph examinations”

[Hillside_H_Ranch]

[QUOTE=Samotis;6564622]
Because of this, I did consider not taking my colt to the Old/NA inspection this weekend.

I took my now 4 year old gelding in 2008 and while he had already been weaned and showed that, the comments were he was too quiet and moved too flat. He is a hunter 100 percent. He has beautiful hunter movement and jumps slow and scoped. So it was disappointing to take him.

Now my new colt has a little more bounce to his step and is also still with mom. So he has the upper hand. We will see how he does. He is a full brother to the 4 year old, so he is a hunter type as well.

You would think that since in the US that hunters are a big thing and starting to become more breed oriented (where before it was just a horse that moved good and jumped good, no one cared about breeding) that these registries would try to cater to hunter breeders!

I know there is still a ways to go before hunter trainers know the breeding of their horses, but I think we are slowly starting to get there!

Wouldn’t that be nice to hear the breeding of our hunters as they go into the ring! ;)[/QUOTE]

I actually have found Oldenburg NA/ISR to be the most generous and open to hunter type foals. We have a large Oldenburg NA inspection in my area every year and this year’s champion foal was a Westporte colt out of a TB mare, bred to be a hunter. He beat out a Sandro Hit colt that scored an 8.6! for movement and was the full sibling to last years site champion. This registry, more than any other I’ve worked with, seems to be more open to hunter type foals and hunter pedigrees and often rewards those foals with very good scores.

[3Dogs]

[QUOTE=Hillside H Ranch;6565064]
I actually have found Oldenburg NA/ISR to be the most generous and open to hunter type foals. We have a large Oldenburg NA inspection in my area every year and this year’s champion foal was a Westporte colt out of a TB mare, bred to be a hunter. He beat out a Sandro Hit colt that scored an 8.6! for movement and was the full sibling to last years site champion. This registry, more than any other I’ve worked with, seems to be more open to hunter type foals and hunter pedigrees and often rewards those foals with very good scores.[/QUOTE]

They rewarded a good foal!!! congratulations ! Fabulous.:yes: This splicing hairs re “hunter” type - I think a good judge knows a good foal and can judge their potential - regardless of their ultimate destiny ! JMHO and I suspect I am in the minority on this issue!:yes:

[ahf]

[QUOTE=Lynnwood;6565058]
I had no issue with the X-rays either. He was a nice colt and having them regardless of his stallion intents gave him the Prok predicate and us the ease of mind that his dam was throwing sound properly developing young horses.

The pedigree issues we did not hear about until AFTER we’d been asked to submit him for scoping and semen evaluation.

Not to mention after you go through the cost of Prok xrays and scoping the reg then charges a fee to read them?? They require them (I agree thanks for being responsible) but then charge you to submit them. “Veterinary requirements: Stallions must meetradiograph and endoscopy requirements as well as the Physical Examination described earlier. There is a $150 fee each for reading the endoscopy and radiograph examinations”[/QUOTE]

Yeah - there were four radiologists at R & R that charged $100 each to interpret the radiographs for the registry.

I’ve told this story before, and it still makes me laugh (fortunately, it made me laugh at the time too):

“They” told me beofrehand you are just a walking checkbook as a stallion owner. My colt didn’t even make it back to his stall after his licensing…still had his necksash on for God’s sake…before the vet stopped us and came at him with a syringe in one hand to draw blood, and a request thrown over his shoulder that I make the check out for $450 for the drug screen and the physical exam he was about to have.

Don’t get me wrong…I fully endorse drug screens and exams for stallions going through the approval process…mareowners deserve that kind of protection if they are going to use the registries’ stallions…but it would have been nice to know this was expected if he passed. Thanks heavens they don’t require it until after they get the nod - I didn’t know until your post to be thankful for that.

[Samotis]

The Old/NA inspector loved my TB mare. In fact kept saying he would love to have a mare like her. Couldn’t believe she was a tb.

I was nervous when I took her because she is tiny. Just 15.3 and very petite. She looked like a pony compared to the other mares.

But he gave her a great score and she tied for high score mare in the country that year!

She was my hunter for a while and I decided she may be more of an asset to me as a broodmare.

I am glad to hear that old/na is accepting of hunters.

Hopefully my guy will do well this weekend!

[Lynnwood]

[QUOTE=3Dogs;6565082]
They rewarded a good foal!!! congratulations ! Fabulous.:yes: This splicing hairs re “hunter” type - I think a good judge knows a good foal and can judge their potential - regardless of their ultimate destiny ! JMHO and I suspect I am in the minority on this issue!:yes:[/QUOTE]

I think your exact statement is the issue there are MANY amoung us that have found out the hard way that statement to be false.

A juror/judge who has no background or experience with hunters is not going to judge them correctly or appropriately. Especially if they are not fond of the idea in the first place.

[Cloverbarley]

[QUOTE=3Dogs;6565082]
I think a good judge knows a good foal and can judge their potential - regardless of their ultimate destiny ! [/QUOTE]

I agree they can judge conformation of any horse regardless of which discipline it will end up in and I’ve had nice compliments when my foals stand quietly to be looked over and have their markings etc registered, however I’ve found that the case is the inspectors generally don’t care for the calm quietness of these foals. They certainly don’t seem to like the smooth gaits with flat kneed action. The dressage movement foals are really what they want to see I believe; loads of knee and hock action, as dressage is always the discipline that they talk about. Ok fine, I like dressage horses too but that is not what I’m breeding so to have hunter-bred foals being compared to dressage-bred foals doesn’t make any sense.

[3Dogs]

[QUOTE=Cloverbarley;6565249]
I agree they can judge conformation of any horse regardless of which discipline it will end up in and I’ve had nice compliments when my foals stand quietly to be looked over and have their markings etc registered, however I’ve found that the case is the inspectors generally don’t care for the calm quietness of these foals. They certainly don’t seem to like the smooth gaits with flat kneed action. The dressage movement foals are really what they want to see I believe; loads of knee and hock action, as dressage is always the discipline that they talk about. Ok fine, I like dressage horses too but that is not what I’m breeding so to have hunter-bred foals being compared to dressage-bred foals doesn’t make any sense.[/QUOTE]

I agree with you and get that…I guess I simply accept that for the registries in General…that is what happens! And I go from them having presented my foals and listened to what they liked (or didn’t). I really am not sure why I bother with colts that will get gelded…haha…moth to the flame I guess…but it doesn’t get me all lathered up as if I want the offspring compared to the “hunter types” I can go to HB…though depending where one lives? Might be darn near impossible!

What is ironic is when “hunter” breeders bring their foals to an inspection (not you Hillside!)and the judges LOVE the hock and knee action of their foals! I watch their faces and can’t tell if they are pleased or not :lol:

[horsechick]

had this same experience yesterday with two Amazing foals presented at ISR/OLD. Both got well over 8s in type and conformation, but in the high 7s for movement. The filly even hopped over some mums and Christian congratulated the owner on breeding a lovely hunter prospect. It is a bit frustrating that while they are more accepting of hunter types, it still is hard for them to score well in movement if they are not “big” movers…

[sixpoundfarm]

I was not looking to get into registry specifics, as I think its a wide reaching issue- yet I feel the need to clarify why I started this topic.

Unlike most of the German registries, The KWPN has become a more specialized studbook, and you are asked to designate a breeding direction when you present your mares and youngstock at a keuring. (I believe the BWP also has a Hunter book) In the US, you have the option for Dressage, Jumper, Hunter or Harness. If a foal/mare/stallion is going to be judged against a set standard of a breeding direction, then its only fair to have the standards clear and current with what actually makes up that type of horse.
When one brings a Hunter type foal to be presented for the Hunter book, and it shows many of the characteristics that are desired by current market in a hunter prospect, yet you are told that foal is not of the type or mover desired, that is a difficult criticism to understand. So, I can appreciate and relate to Lynnwood’s statements.

Yes, a good foal is a good foal, but the foals that have the BIG trot are the ones that earn the premiums and good movement scores at the inspections (For the registries that give scores and premiums).
And, before anyone goes there, I do realize its a day in a foal’s life, and sometimes, you are the one that walks away with the winner, and other times you have the foal that refused to show one step of trot. :sigh:
Having a foal score well at its inspection is a nice accolade to earn after all the time, hard work and $$ it takes to get that foal to that point in its life. It lets the breeder know they are on the right track and could possibly help to sell that foal down the road.

[Hillside_H_Ranch]

[QUOTE=3Dogs;6565273]
I agree with you and get that…I guess I simply accept that for the registries in General…that is what happens! And I go from them having presented my foals and listened to what they liked (or didn’t). I really am not sure why I bother with colts that will get gelded…haha…moth to the flame I guess…but it doesn’t get me all lathered up as if I want the offspring compared to the “hunter types” I can go to HB…though depending where one lives? Might be darn near impossible!

What is ironic is when “hunter” breeders bring their foals to an inspection (not you Hillside!)and the judges LOVE the hock and knee action of their foals! I watch their faces and can’t tell if they are pleased or not :lol:[/QUOTE]

Don’t worry, I don’t breed hunters (the Westporte mentioned above wasn’t mine) :)! I’m in the smaller minority of people going exclusively for jumpers; sometimes we get “big” moving babies and sometimes we get flatter movers and for me it doesn’t matter one bit