Inspection of the Hunter Type Horse/Foal- A work in Progress

But HorseChick? Why frustrated? I saw two of your offspring at my OLD/ISR inspection …nice nice foals btw…one did make to a show down for premium…but I wasn’t frustrated my Sir Wanabi did not score for “big movement”! I didn’t breed her for big movement! I have no problem when big dressage moving foals score higher…

Now if we all think we might create/push/change these historic registries to have an “eye” for a “hunter type” I am all in…but I will probably be pushing up daisies by then and still doubt those looking for hunter foals care about registry movement scores or even know what they might mean;)…

3 dogs, thanks :slight_smile: Only mildly frustrating as I knew what to expect, but hard to explain the process to my friend who owns one of the foals. I think as hunter breeders, we’ll just have to wait until they hit the show ring to reap the rewards of our program…God willing!

[QUOTE=horsechick;6565487]
3 dogs, thanks :slight_smile: Only mildly frustrating as I knew what to expect, but hard to explain the process to my friend who owns one of the foals. I think as hunter breeders, we’ll just have to wait until they hit the show ring to reap the rewards of our program…God willing![/QUOTE]

Right ! And educate educate educate:winkgrin:

As an ‘outsider’ to HB, I find this an interesting topic. We do not breed specifically for hunters here but the classes do attract huge numbers of entries and interest.

I have no dog in this fight - I am merely commentating from across the room.

Aside from the KWPN who have a dedicated Hunter appraisal, the other large Euro studbooks do not. They judge a foal/mare/stallion prospect with a view to jumping and dressage. You are asking them to consider your horse for their studbook based on differing standards because it is a popular sport in the US.

New Zealanders love wild pig hunting using horses. It requires a certain type of horse. Let’s say we selectively bred this type of horse using good quality XYZ bloodstock and then presented them for classification/grading. The judges slam the foals for being coarse, short-legged, short-striding, wide as a bus, and half asleep with no canter. The pig hunter breeders complain that the Europeans need to acknowledge that this type of XYZ is SUPPOSED to look this way, indeed it performs best if shaped like this.

Why should the Europeans alter their standards to accept a differing type that is bred to do a sport that they are not terribly familiar with? If you want to breed XYZs that score well at the classifications the breed standards are clear. If you wish to breed XYZs that are awesome pig hunters then don’t expect them to wow the judges.

Ok so I may have been a bit tongue in cheek there but my question is this:

Should the European studbooks care about the sport of hunter jumping enough to make significant changes to a many centuries old studbook?

GOV has been exceedingly complimentary to my “hunter type” foals (all three were premium this year even when up against all of Hilda Gurney’s dressage babies) - they specifically announced to the crowd the hunter qualities that would make them suitable for the discipline they were bred for.

[QUOTE=sixpoundfarm;6565341]

Unlike most of the German registries, The KWPN has become a more specialized studbook, and you are asked to designate a breeding direction when you present your mares and youngstock at a keuring. (I believe the BWP also has a Hunter book) In the US, you have the option for Dressage, Jumper, Hunter or Harness. If a foal/mare/stallion is going to be judged against a set standard of a breeding direction, then its only fair to have the standards clear and current with what actually makes up that type of horse.
When one brings a Hunter type foal to be presented for the Hunter book, and it shows many of the characteristics that are desired by current market in a hunter prospect, yet you are told that foal is not of the type or mover desired, that is a difficult criticism to understand. So, I can appreciate and relate to Lynnwood’s statements.

Yes, a good foal is a good foal, but the foals that have the BIG trot are the ones that earn the premiums and good movement scores at the inspections (For the registries that give scores and premiums).
And, before anyone goes there, I do realize its a day in a foal’s life, and sometimes, you are the one that walks away with the winner, and other times you have the foal that refused to show one step of trot. :sigh:
Having a foal score well at its inspection is a nice accolade to earn after all the time, hard work and $$ it takes to get that foal to that point in its life. It lets the breeder know they are on the right track and could possibly help to sell that foal down the road.[/QUOTE]

The BWP does have a “hunter-label” which is judged by a DIFFERENT judge/inspector than the registry keuring inspectors. This judge is a US based hunter judge who knows how to score a hunter-type prospect.

To illustrate the difference in scoring I will use my filly as example. She is out of a mare who had a successful hunter “A” circuit career before an injury retired her to a broodmare. Her sire is my stallion who also showed through the Regular Working Hunters.

This filly is absolutely a hunter type. She was presented to the BWP as a yearling (the year my stallion was approved). She scored a 66 (out of 100) with the European inspectors for her registration. At the same inspection with the hunter judge she score a 92 (out of 100). Same day, same time, different results because they were looking / scoring on different scales. She was bred to be a hunter type so we were pleased. She is being retained as my daughter’s hunter mount.

I like the fact that the BWP has taken this approach to give the hunter-type horse / foal the recognition that they are bred for yet still upholding the “European standards” (for lack of a better description :D). I think it shows a step in the right direction for a breed registry operating in NA.

Kerole, that is a very good analogy. :slight_smile:

But will echo what RanchoAdobe said - I have seen many hunter bred and hunter type foals awarded premiums at OHBS/GOV inspections. While they often do not have the type of movement looked for in a good dressage bred foal, they do exhibit other desirable traits for a sport horse, such as overall good conformation and athletic use of the body. The inspectors often comment on the fact that it is a hunter type foal, but since they do not score foals, there is nothing for the breeder to get upset about - IOW, the premium award given to the hunter foal is the same as the premium award given to the dressage bred or jumper bred foal. (We just had a lovely little Ironman / TB foal earn a premium at our recent inspection - and she was definitely a hunter type - and that premium award was identical to the one given to the dressage bred and jumper bred foals.)

Will also add that Holly Simensen is at many of the OHBS/GOV inspections, and since she was born and has lived in North America her entire life, she has had a LOT of exposure to the hunter world. Not only did she ride hunters “back in the day”, but she also saw many top hunters while accompanying her late husband to big H/J competitions (he was the USET vet for over two decades). She also sees top hunter competitions every winter in Wellington, plus she stays in regular touch with many hunter breeders, riders, and trainers, so she has a pretty good understanding of what is needed for the hunter ring.

I think that most of the American or Canadian inspectors probably understand hunters better than their Euro counterparts, but that is to be expected - hunters are not a big thing in Europe, so folks there do not have the exposure to hunter sport that we have on this side of the pond. Hunters is not part of the culture in the great WB producing nations of Europe, and since they don’t have the production of hunter types as a breeding goal, they don’t breed for those types.

[QUOTE=Kerole;6565563]

Ok so I may have been a bit tongue in cheek there but my question is this:

Should the European studbooks care about the sport of hunter jumping enough to make significant changes to a many centuries old studbook?[/QUOTE]

The short answer YES if they are going to offer a “Hunter” addition/page to their books or allow for hunter type animals then yes they should at the very least be abreast on what facets make up a good hunter.

If they have zero interest in having hunter types or learning how to appropriately evaluate them then don’t offer a hunter book. Easy peasey

I go to the inspections with lower expectations now and just want them to “pass” get branded and papered…I know what they were/are bred for…

When you are used to seeing the knee and hock action all day long…the daisy cutter just doesn’t impress them…

SH:)

[QUOTE]The short answer YES if they are going to offer a “Hunter” addition/page to their books or allow for hunter type animals then yes they should at the very least be abreast on what facets make up a good hunter.

If they have zero interest in having hunter types or learning how to appropriately evaluate them then don’t offer a hunter book. Easy peasey

I totally agree that if you are offering a hunter option at the appraisals then you better be up on what constitutes a good hunter! But aside from KWPN-NA the other major Euro studbooks don’t offer this. Or am I incorrect?

Take your daisy cutter along to an OLD NA judging day and be prepared for not too many favourable comments regarding the gaits and presence. It would be no different if I took my purebred Oldenburg pig hunter!

I haven’t personally seen hunter breds scored unfairly, but we also breed our hunters for their jump/scope rather than for the daisy cutter movement. I am cool with a flat mover, but too often it comes without any power behind or good swing and elasticity. They still need to be able to “sit” on their hindquarters and elevate their front end the first couple of steps of trot and canter. Those are qualities needed for an athletic horse regardless of the discipline. The hunter types that I have seen that have not done well at inspection, have lacked the appearance of athletic ability. Sometimes, they are also built downhill or have a low set neck which can be hidden a bit by standing them up like a hunter and stretching the neck, but again, it is not something we want when breeding an athlete. Sure, these horses may go on to be super 3’ to 3’6" hunters, but we should be striving to breed a horse capable of the 4’ to 4’6" hunters. That said, it makes sense that the foals/mares/stallions that appear less athletic are not going to score as well. The athletic hunter types will score and do as well as their jumper and dressage counterparts.