Insulin Resistance- Buying, Selling, Owning...

[TheBrownHorse]

Hi all, I hope you can help me out here.

I went horse shopping today for a friend who was out of town. She’s a really good AA just getting back into riding after a long break. I’ve been teaching her on my Holstiener gelding for a bit now, and she’s really getting strong and confident. She’s a really lovely rider. I have not yet started them o/f together as he needs some tuning up (I took almost a year off due to an injury).Anyways, besides the point, other than I was horse shopping for her.

The horse I found was perfect, in her budget, super easy going, hunter type than can take a joke (or two, or three!). Unfortunately I’m not sure financially she can actually make the commitment. However.

The third horse I tried was priced VERY low (3K). He’s a 10 going on 11 year old tb/hano cross with all the buttons, easy contender for the 1.20’s, just incredibly out of shape, under muscled, and needs a ton of groceries. Oh, and he is at LEAST four weeks overdue for shoes. OH AND he’s insulin resistant.

As far as current management they have him on an alfalfa diet (I believe 100%… yet he’s still super underweight). His feet are not being tended to, he has yet to founder but it’s not if it will happen if he stays in his current state, it’s when.

I don’t need another horse. I really, really don’t need another horse. However, I don’t know, I just really connected to him in a way that’s very unusual. Very visceral reaction type of, oh my god I have to bring this horse home.

Briefly spoke to my vet before he had to attend to his next client, and he was not super thrilled with the idea of an IR horse as a competition horse.

I, personally, know very little about IR in horses. I know the basics, what to feed, when to feed, how to feed, etc. And common sense stuff like… you can’t let this horse go 10+ weeks without getting shod… ya know…

Questions are:

If I were to end up with this horse, because he’s so cheap (I’d be asking and have a feeling the’d accept 2,300 for him) I would not do a PPE. Now, LOGICALLY this sounds insane. IR horse who hasn’t had his feet done in god knows how long, radiographs at least would be common sense. but like I said. I don’t think I’d PPE for the price (and yes, lecture me on this, please). Or, if an IR horse can be resalable, perhaps I could do a simple set of radiographs.

What should I expect (let’s say I DO end up with this horse) to deal with an IR horse who is being legged up for competition?

How much does IR affect sale price? This horse would be a resale project (however he just tugs at my heart strings because he needs so much help). This is a FANCY horse who just got into the wrong hands. When I rode him (very, very, very briefly) he knew everything and more. Easily a contender for the 1.20’s but, IR. I don’t know enough about it.

So owning the IR horse. I understand the special diets and feeds, feed times, etc. I assume that good shoeing is good shoeing regardless of if the horse is IR. My farrier custom makes each shoe, I have no doubt he could fix up this horses feet in several, five week interval sessions. But, I don’t want a surprise. Do these horses NEED pads? Do they need bar shoes? do they just need PROPER SHOEING (which I can certianly provide, amongst other things like acupuncture, body work and chiro)?

And selling- I’d be doing some serious legging up, but we’re local to some big A rated shows. I could easily trailer in for a day or two, in several months put around in the .90’s etc.

Basically, I need all the info on IR horses, how it affects their sale price, and what would I be getting myself into.

And please, please, PLEASE do not fear to talk me out of this. I think this is one of those lessons in life that’s “you can’t save them all…” :no:

But this horse. I don’t know. I want to save this one. :sadsmile:

[Highflyer]

I have a friend who does training level eventing with hers. But it’s a lot of very careful management, it’s expensive, and it can be very frustrating. I’m not sure I would buy one unless it was a keeper, it will definitely affect sale price significantly. And you don’t know until the horse is doing it, whether he actually will be OK. The feet are generally proper management unless something more is wrong. But there may also be a reason he ended up where he is, and it may be a soundness issue.

[Ponyplusaninch]

I would only buy an IR horse if I intended on keeping it for myself. It is expensive management, and on top of that it’s not one size fits all, so you can be guessing and checking a lot. If you feel the horse is worth his weight in gold in every other way, then maybe take a gander.

[KandC]

[QUOTE=TheBrownHorse;8730011]

I went horse shopping today for a friend who was out of town. She’s a really good AA just getting back into riding after a long break. I’ve been teaching her on my Holstiener gelding for a bit now, and she’s really getting strong and confident. She’s a really lovely rider. I have not yet started them o/f together as he needs some tuning up (I took almost a year off due to an injury).Anyways, besides the point, other than I was horse shopping for her.

The horse I found was perfect, in her budget, super easy going, hunter type than can take a joke (or two, or three!). Unfortunately I’m not sure financially she can actually make the commitment. However.

The third horse I tried was priced VERY low (3K). He’s a 10 going on 11 year old tb/hano cross with all the buttons, easy contender for the 1.20’s, just incredibly out of shape, under muscled, and needs a ton of groceries. Oh, and he is at LEAST four weeks overdue for shoes. OH AND he’s insulin resistant.

As far as current management they have him on an alfalfa diet (I believe 100%… yet he’s still super underweight). His feet are not being tended to, he has yet to founder but it’s not if it will happen if he stays in his current state, it’s when.

I don’t need another horse. I really, really don’t need another horse. However, I don’t know, I just really connected to him in a way that’s very unusual. Very visceral reaction type of, oh my god I have to bring this horse home.

Briefly spoke to my vet before he had to attend to his next client, and he was not super thrilled with the idea of an IR horse as a competition horse.

I, personally, know very little about IR in horses. I know the basics, what to feed, when to feed, how to feed, etc. And common sense stuff like… you can’t let this horse go 10+ weeks without getting shod… ya know…

Questions are:

If I were to end up with this horse, because he’s so cheap (I’d be asking and have a feeling the’d accept 2,300 for him) I would not do a PPE. Now, LOGICALLY this sounds insane. IR horse who hasn’t had his feet done in god knows how long, radiographs at least would be common sense. but like I said. I don’t think I’d PPE for the price (and yes, lecture me on this, please). Or, if an IR horse can be resalable, perhaps I could do a simple set of radiographs.

What should I expect (let’s say I DO end up with this horse) to deal with an IR horse who is being legged up for competition?

How much does IR affect sale price? This horse would be a resale project (however he just tugs at my heart strings because he needs so much help). This is a FANCY horse who just got into the wrong hands. When I rode him (very, very, very briefly) he knew everything and more. Easily a contender for the 1.20’s but, IR. I don’t know enough about it.

So owning the IR horse. I understand the special diets and feeds, feed times, etc. I assume that good shoeing is good shoeing regardless of if the horse is IR. My farrier custom makes each shoe, I have no doubt he could fix up this horses feet in several, five week interval sessions. But, I don’t want a surprise. Do these horses NEED pads? Do they need bar shoes? do they just need PROPER SHOEING (which I can certianly provide, amongst other things like acupuncture, body work and chiro)?

And selling- I’d be doing some serious legging up, but we’re local to some big A rated shows. I could easily trailer in for a day or two, in several months put around in the .90’s etc.

Basically, I need all the info on IR horses, how it affects their sale price, and what would I be getting myself into.

And please, please, PLEASE do not fear to talk me out of this. I think this is one of those lessons in life that’s “you can’t save them all…” :no:

But this horse. I don’t know. I want to save this one. :sadsmile:[/QUOTE]

So first things first- what kind of IR does he have? Is he a confirmed Cushing’s or Equine Metabolic Syndrome horse? Management is similar; medication is different. I would look into that first. Both can cause weight loss and muscle wasting, so confirming one can help with the groceries.

If you do anything, radiograph his feet. Laminitis is a big issue in these kids, and it’s better to get ahead/caught on chronic changes than deal with a major acute episode down the road. Not all IR horses need pads/special shoes/etc. Laminitic horses, yes- which is why the foot radiographs are important. Initial foot rads can help you tailor his trimming regimen/shoeing regimen to his angles, if they’re abnormal. From my (limited) understanding, proper shoeing can actually reverse mild laminitic changes. If they’re not abnormal, I would shoe/trim to make him comfortable, and watch his sugar intake: soak his hay for at least 30 minutes to decrease sugar content, low starch grain (Triple Crown’s is wonderful), which you already know!

IR would probably affect his sale price- he’s got a known medical condition; however, with proper veterinary care and monitoring his feet/food/body condition, it should not affect his sale price too terribly. The big thing with IR horses is diet and exercise are the two top ways to manage them. If he is Cushing’s positive, Pergolide is expensive, so that would make me balk a bit more than an EMS horse (IMO, others may not bat an eye).

So in a nutshell: figure out what type of IR he has. Radiograph his feet, shoe accordingly. Low starch grain, soaked hay, muzzle for grazing +/- graze in the shade/at night (low sugar in the grass). Monitor his body condition- they get overweight, it increases their risk of founder.

I hope this helps! (And anyone feel free to correct me- I’m always willing to learn more!)

[BeeHoney]

I’m not a vet, so I’m going to speak from a practical standpoint. A horse with a metabolic disorder is not a good resale candidate. A horse with muscle wasting is also not a good candidate to take on as a show horse or resale project.

This horse sounds more complicated than the typical EMS horse. The typical EMS horse is an easy keeper. Often those easy keepers thrive on a working lifestyle and have problems when put out to pasture for vacation/retirement. The horse the OP is talking about is thin (despite what sounds like a generous, if inappropriate diet) with muscle wasting. That’s quite a bit more of a red flag to me than a typical EMS horse. IME, horses with muscle wasting (whatever the cause) don’t end up as useful working horses (beyond easy lower level expectations).

If the horse has Cushings (which can can have weight loss, muscle wasting, and IR), that’s a definite deal breaker. Pergolide is expensive, and the need for daily medication will kill any future resale possibilities.

Can I ask on what evidence are you basing your statement that this horse could be an easy contender in the jumper ring at 1.2m? I doubt that you were able to test out the jumping ability of a horse that is out of shape and four weeks overdue for shoes. Old pictures and video? I’d say those are probably lacking in relevance as far as predicting what level this horse will be able to achieve at this point in his life.

As you yourself point out, there’s also the issue that the horse’s feet being in such bad condition will make it very difficult to evaluate basic soundness. This isn’t an otherwise healthy four year old with overgrown, chipped up feet (NBD). This is a horse with other health conditions that would make me more concerned about basic soundness. A vetting might also turn out to be expensive given the possibility that your vet might recommend further metabolic testing (Cushings?) and might be more likely to recommend X-rays given the limited ability to evaluate the horse otherwise.

I’m not trying to be a Debbie-downer or to pick on you! It’s just better to ask all the hard questions before you purchase a horse because it is a huge commitment. This is the kind of horse that could easily end up being something you are stuck with.

[vxf111]

I would not be looking to buy this horse personally, no matter how much someone had rehabbed him. If you want to buy him knowing you might be stuck with him and he might not come around, go for it. I don’t think resale is a particularly viable idea.

[Pennywell_Bay]

You are hearing the same things as on your other thread.
http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?494856-Insulin-Resistance-Buying-Selling-Owning

You can post on any of the forums and are most likely going to get the same answer, in this situation.

[bayhunter]

I personally would not take this horse for free. Actually, you couldn’t pay me to take a horse like this. Also, even if he wasn’t IR, why would you not do a PPE? So many things can be wrong with a horse - let alone one in the wrong hands - I would certainly not not do a PPE on a horse I actually wanted to be a 1.20 horse. Also, if he truly is a fancy 1.20 contender then why would he end up in the hands of a person who’s neglecting him? Something doesn’t seem right, aside from the obvious IR problem…

[Coreene]

Not for all the money in the world.

[TheBrownHorse]

Wow everyone thank you SO much.

I slept on it last night and this morning, not matter how badly my heart is telling me I need to rescue this horse, it’s not the right time for me, and it’s also not my responsibility to save every horse (and trust me, I’ve saved a few).

As far as knowing he’d be a 1.20, he was professionally trained and competing at that height, easily. He then fell into the wrong hands, owner doesn’t know how to ride, and is in financial doom and therefor stopped caring for her horse (re: his feet). It’s super obvious this horse has the skill, knowledge, and heart to get back to it, but I just can’t afford to get into something that there’s no structure around- meaning, IR is many different things, many different stages, etc.etc.etc.

I talked to my vet more thoroughly, I talked to a lot of friends in the horse world, and came here (and yes, cross posted) for advice. At the very least, to learn more about IR.

So, big sigh of relief (though not for my heart) I will NOT be bringing this guy home.

Thank you all for your input, I value each and every one of you who’ve replied.

[horsegurl]

I’d buy it in a second!!!

[QUOTE=KandC;8730526]
So first things first- what kind of IR does he have? Is he a confirmed Cushing’s or Equine Metabolic Syndrome horse? Management is similar; medication is different. I would look into that first. Both can cause weight loss and muscle wasting, so confirming one can help with the groceries.

If you do anything, radiograph his feet. Laminitis is a big issue in these kids, and it’s better to get ahead/caught on chronic changes than deal with a major acute episode down the road. Not all IR horses need pads/special shoes/etc. Laminitic horses, yes- which is why the foot radiographs are important. Initial foot rads can help you tailor his trimming regimen/shoeing regimen to his angles, if they’re abnormal. From my (limited) understanding, proper shoeing can actually reverse mild laminitic changes. If they’re not abnormal, I would shoe/trim to make him comfortable, and watch his sugar intake: soak his hay for at least 30 minutes to decrease sugar content, low starch grain (Triple Crown’s is wonderful), which you already know!

IR would probably affect his sale price- he’s got a known medical condition; however, with proper veterinary care and monitoring his feet/food/body condition, it should not affect his sale price too terribly. The big thing with IR horses is diet and exercise are the two top ways to manage them. If he is Cushing’s positive, Pergolide is expensive, so that would make me balk a bit more than an EMS horse (IMO, others may not bat an eye).

So in a nutshell: figure out what type of IR he has. Radiograph his feet, shoe accordingly. Low starch grain, soaked hay, muzzle for grazing +/- graze in the shade/at night (low sugar in the grass). Monitor his body condition- they get overweight, it increases their risk of founder.

I hope this helps! (And anyone feel free to correct me- I’m always willing to learn more!)[/QUOTE]

KandC is very smart (or “are” very smart). You should def check hooves via radiograph to be sure no previous laminitic conditions have ruined the horse.

All KandC said aside, I’d buy that horse th a second if it is that good. I have an IR/Cushings guy for the last 5 years that I’ve shown, managed with 1/2 a Pergolide, not just a low starch diet, but low NSC to 9%–very crucial low NSC, not just low starch. Half alfalfa half grass hay, daily work, with a couple of days of turn out, nothing outrageous. But…you need to do enough PPE to go in with the knowledge of “how IR is he”. And you should check for the PPID/Cushings while you’re at it, because why trust the seller? Could be passing it off as IR, but could be PPID too. Most PPID horses have IR, but not every IR has PPID–best to find out, the PPID is a little tougher to deal with.

GOOD LUCK

[Prime_Time_Rider]

I have a horse who is IR and all it takes is a little common sense and good management. I soak her hay for a hour before feeding, she is on a low starch feed (Purina Wellsolve low starch) and she has been sound for years. She had a bout with laminitis 5 years ago, which led to her dianosis as IR. She hasn’t had another laminitis episode, doesn’t require special shoes and is in regular work, jumps and fox hunts.
All it takes is some dietary management. She wears a grazing muzzle most of the year, except when the grass is dead.

[merrygoround]

I had a horse with IR here, but no one realized the horse had IR for years, because the horse, thought always tending to gain weight easily, had been on full work. The IR didn’t rear it’s ugly head until time pressure caused the rider to back off and not ride very often.

Even then, with maintenance the horse went on to a useful life for many years. There are no drugs involved, just common sense maintenance, and good shoeing.

PS-the horse’s main job in life was jumping…

[BostonHJ]

[QUOTE=TheBrownHorse;8730807]
As far as knowing he’d be a 1.20, he was professionally trained and competing at that height, easily. He then fell into the wrong hands, owner doesn’t know how to ride, and is in financial doom and therefor stopped caring for her horse (re: his feet). It’s super obvious this horse has the skill, knowledge, and heart to get back to it.[/QUOTE]

Sounds like you have already made the rational decision - just wanted to reinforce it! It’s a huge red flag when a horse is trained and seems to have all of the buttons but isn’t in work. The owner can claim financial distress, but perhaps they weren’t able to keep the wheels on the bus in regards to soundness (or other issues) and then decided to stop throwing money at the problem.

[monalisa]

You need to ride an IR horse very regularly. I have one who was diagnosed this year. He is on a special diet and grass is not his friend so he has to be managed and watched. Mine is not Cushings so no meds to speak of but I watch his weight very closely. They can be managed but you must be very diligent about it.