Interesting article c6-c7 malformation

[beowulf]

@Hope And A Prayer

Been following this with interest. I have a young WB gelding from a TB mare who is horribly asymetrical in the shoulders, high/low in front, and has always been a little nqr but nothing substantial we could put our finger on. Just looked and he’s got Royal Charger x2 on damside through Turn To.

Who are the recent ancestors? I wouldn’t be blaming shoulder asymmetry or high/low on Royal Charger or Turn To. In your horse those are ancestors, and very unlikely to play a part in high/low or shoulder asymmetry.

Those are two of the more valued sport lines in TB sport breeding, and in some irish breeding (ISHs). They’re not ‘nobody names’ - both of those stallions covered hundreds of mares and have a very proven record in terms of what they passed on to their progeny.

By the time you get to Royal Charger or Turn To in a modern horse, you’ve got about 61 other horses in the mix - and that is if either RC or TT are on the first page (5-gen)… if they are further back, which most are (remember, these are 1942 and 1951 editions…) you’re looking at nearly twice that number of individuals besides RC or TT that could possibly have contributed to the mix…

I see this a lot, but people are always so quick to blame the “other half” of a pedigree versus looking hard and up close at the dam and the sire of the horse with issues. The apple rarely falls far from the tree.

Something else to consider about RC and TT’s involvement in this… The c6/c7 malformation is as ubiquitous in WBs as it is in TBs. Turn To and Royal Charger are not foundation lines in WBs; they do show up occasionally through the damline, but not at the frequency they would need to be the root of this issue in the modern sport horses.

This malformation comes from much, much further back than horses born in the 1940s.

[skydy]

I came across this article during the search for more recent studies. It is not specific to C6 C7 malformation, but is interesting nonetheless. https://journals.plos.org/plosone/ar…l.pone.0222989

[NaturallyHappy]

This is a fascinating thread. Has anyone ever wondered if there may be any, albeit far fetched, correlation in cervical malformation and roaring? I have a horse who lives w me who is a roarer and also appears mildly neurologic. He fits the stereotype of a roarer-big, very long, straight neck and a real big head. He moves poorly. His owner is not remotely concerned or curious.

[beowulf]

@NaturallyHappy

This is a fascinating thread. Has anyone ever wondered if there may be any, albeit far fetched, correlation in cervical malformation and roaring? I have a horse who lives w me who is a roarer and also appears mildly neurologic. He fits the stereotype of a roarer-big, very long, straight neck and a real big head. He moves poorly. His owner is not remotely concerned or curious.

Maybe a correlation by conformation, but I haven’t dealt with many roarers yet I’ve dealt with plenty of CA cases. It seems that a longer lined, high necked high withered horse is more predisposed – but not guaranteed. Lots of different pieces that have to fall into place and there’s so many causes of CA that it’s not always pure conformation or genetics. Sometimes the way they’ve been managed or ridden comes into play, too.

[NaturallyHappy]

Thank you, Beowulf.

[NaturallyHappy]

@sheltona01

The shoulder is a reflection of the rest of the horse and how they move since the front legs are only attached with soft tissue. Most horse have higher and lower shoulder or not even front to back. Very rarely do I have a horse that has mostly even shoulders. It is something I check as a saddle fitter.

If you are really diligent and there is not structure reason your horse moves asymmetricaly, you can even them up. I did it with my 23 year old tb after years of unevenness. It took over a year of hard work.

If your horse has high/low hoofs or hooves that are not the same, it radiates up the front legs to the shoulders.

Not saying that could not be playing a part of your horses uneven shoulders, but I would not use it as an indication that your horse has the malformation.

Hi there, I’m curious as to how you evened them up. Thank you!

[sheltona01]

Correct work basically if there is not a physical issue. Most horse have an uneven stride. In my horses case his stance leg was his rt hind, so his left hind was his swing leg. His was not lame, just slightly uneven, which is totally normal. So his muscles over the years developed unevenly. Since the shoulders are only attached though soft tissue, it shows up there. So I spent over a year making sure I was riding him as evenly as possible on both side and asking him to step up more with his rt hind. I also focused a lot on getting me straight as a rider. That is a very simplistic explanation. Does that help?

[leesa1]

@NaturallyHappy

This is a fascinating thread. Has anyone ever wondered if there may be any, albeit far fetched, correlation in cervical malformation and roaring? I have a horse who lives w me who is a roarer and also appears mildly neurologic. He fits the stereotype of a roarer-big, very long, straight neck and a real big head. He moves poorly. His owner is not remotely concerned or curious.

A little while back I saw a webinar with Sharon May Davis about ECVM and she did mention roarers.
The webinar is 2 hours long but the link will start the video at the point where she spoke about roarers.

No. 133. Sharon May Davis discusses Equine Complex Vertebral Malformation (ECVM)

[Old_Mac_Donald]

Excellent timing. I’ve often suspected one of mine (non-TB) to have neck issues. The “horse psychic” said the same, without any input from me. She’s been on “loose rein trail riding” only for about a year - a job at which she is great at - and recently did a little lateral work with her, asking for some “sit”. For the first time ever, I was able to hear what sounds like her “roaring” when she is moderately collected. It was followed by her reefing at the reins and attempting to run off like a cockroach.

More reason to go pleading to my vet to give x-raying her neck as per SMD’s protocol a go.

[Jealoushe]

Super interesting. My first event horse was Turn To not too far back… he raced until 9 and evented until 23. Soundest horse ever. However his back broke just walking in from the field and had to be euthanized when he was 24. Not a single sign before that.

He very well may have had issues but was tough never showed a thing.

[NaturallyHappy]

I’m so sorry💔

[Old_Mac_Donald]

@Simkie

I read that passage as they’ve tracked it back to a horse that is very prominent in all TB pedigrees, like Phalaris. One that’s so prominent that naming the line is all but useless. But count me in as super curious as to what they really mean by that statement, and which TB lines really have this risk.

The horse was Eclipse I believe. They also identified Arkle as well.

[Old_Mac_Donald]

@Old_Mac_Donald

Excellent timing. I’ve often suspected one of mine (non-TB) to have neck issues. The “horse psychic” said the same, without any input from me. She’s been on “loose rein trail riding” only for about a year - a job at which she is great at - and recently did a little lateral work with her, asking for some “sit”. For the first time ever, I was able to hear what sounds like her “roaring” when she is moderately collected. It was followed by her reefing at the reins and attempting to run off like a cockroach.

More reason to go pleading to my vet to give x-raying her neck as per SMD’s protocol a go.

An update: My horse was just diagnosed (two years after I had the rads pulled and “cleared”) was malformation of the C6 / transposition to C7. I had the rads re-examined after I noticed that the horse was basically standing on a tightrope when being stood up for the farrier. I looked back of 6 months of photos, and in every one, she stands with right foreleg forward. Every single one. Right forward and towards the centre.

Apparently the psychic was right.

Bugger.

[fivestrideline]

Well darn. My mystery NQR TB stands like that all. the. time. while grazing. One front out and towards the center, the other back under his midline past the girth. I know horses get “grazing foot” cause they stand one in front and one back, but this horse never switches his feet (rearranges himself into that position every time he takes a step to reach more grass) and the feet are definitely well towards his midline. Sometimes I wonder how he stays upright…

ETA sorry about your horse Old_Mac_Donald