Interesting Article on Treeless Saddles

[Guilherme]

[QUOTE=Daatje;5993014]
Until you have first hand, personal experience with a high quality and well-fit treeless saddle, who are you to judge the reality of whether they help or harm?[/QUOTE]

And you know I haven’t because…?

As for A2’s dislike of my manner, that’s her business. If she finds me rude I find her incredible.

So we’re back where we usually are, with some folks claiming these are the neatest thing since bottled beer and my asserting they are blister rigs designed to cripple horses.

Folks can make up their own minds as far as I’m concerned.

G.

[Lifting_Chickk]

[QUOTE=Guilherme;5993232]
And you know I haven’t because…?

Because I have yet to see you testify to the fact that you have.

Folks can make up their own minds as far as I’m concerned.

G.[/QUOTE]

That’s usually the best thing for folks to do!

[wendy]

The advocates of treeless have yet to demonstrate that any system of soft saddle and pad can effectively distribute weight. Unless and until that happens they are putting the health of their horse’s back at risk.

so where are the data for the treed saddles demonstrating their ability to distribute weight? And where are the data demonstrating how a stiff treed saddle can “fit well” when the horse’s back isn’t stiff and moves and changes shape (this one has always puzzled me)?

I was under the impression that treed saddles were invented long ago as a way to stabilize the rider in the seat, with absolutely no regard for the horse’s comfort or thoughts about how to aid the horse’s athletic efforts.

the only related area of science with actual data that I can think of is the area of study of people trying to prevent pressure sores on persons who can’t freely move easily, such as someone seated in a wheelchair. This is somewhat akin to a horse with a saddle and a weight strapped to the horse’s back. Interestingly enough many of the materials used to make wheelchair cushions are remarkable similar to the padding used for treeless saddles.

[Auventera_Two]

@Guilherme;5993232

So we’re back where we usually are, with some folks claiming these are the neatest thing since bottled beer and my asserting they are blister rigs designed to cripple horses.

How many miles or hours have you ridden/trained and competed in treeless saddles, and with how many different horses over how many years?

It sure seems to me like you have an awfully strong opinion of something that you have zero firsthand knowledge of.

This mare of mine has been riding and competing in treeless saddles (primarily Bob Marshall) for several years now. Oh the poor pathetic thing…she looks soooooooooo crippled. :lol: She can barely put one foot in front of the other, she is so sore…

Clearly my “blister rig” has rendered her useless. So useless in fact that I have to hold her back quite firmly so she doesn’t gallop off into the sunset with me. :winkgrin: I will probably never be able to ride her again and will have to stick to ground driving. LOL

[5chestnuts]

[QUOTE=candyappy;5993224]
Is a treeless saddle just like a puffy bareback pad? The Bob Marshall saddles kind of look normal, but others I see seem so thick and puffy. I am just curious what keeps them in place especially if you are using a lot of inserts and padding? How would they be any different than just riding bareback as far as the horse is concerned?[/QUOTE]
Just look at these popular treeless saddles and tell me if you think they look like a puffy bareback pad…or if the shapes looks remarkably familiar to you:

Ansur “Elite” jumping saddle (made in Sensation “G4” dressage
Barefoot “London” dressage (made in Germany)
Freeform (endurance style)
Bob Marshall (high end endurance saddle) - western trail models
Heather Moffet “Vogue GPT” and “Fhoenix” treeless

These saddles are made in Europe, UK, US, and Canada.

Not exactly a “flash in the pan” or local fad.

[Auventera_Two]

Somebody asked about the A-framed backs and treeless saddles. The two that I was recommended to try are the Startrekk and the Trekker. Or the Mackinder Endurance, which has a foam tree.

Bareback pads - in my experience, treeless saddles are not at all like bareback pads. There is significantly much more structure and stability there. I have tried several and I get the most comfort and security from the Bob Marshall. I had major problems with slippage with the Bandos. But the Bob Marshall is very stable and I have ridden out some wicked bolts and spins. In fact, I just realized I have never fallen out of my Bob Marshalls! I have come out of various western, aussie, and other treeless models due to spooks and spins. My mare literally dropped her head to her knees and bucked like a rodeo bronc exactly ONE time in all the years since I broke her out. And I was in a little western trail saddle that appeared to fit her perfectly. We warmed up slowly and picked up a canter in the corn field and BAM. She thrust her head to her knees and started bronc busting. Never saw her do that before, and never saw it again. She plowed me in the dirt faster than you can say bad horse! LOL To my recollection, that was the one and ONLY time I ever attempted to canter her in that saddle.

And some of them have significantly more structure than a Bob Marshall, such as the Freeform or the Startrekk. They are much stiffer and more rigid.

[Auventera_Two]

Better yet, you can click here to see a video of my lame and crippled horse. This way you can see how much damage has been done to her after these years of riding in my blister rig. I should talk with those endurance ride vets though that keep giving her straight As for impulsion, gait, attitude, and back muscles. They clearly don’t have a clue.

In the background you can see my horribly conformed buckskin Appendix horse (no sarcasm here - it’s true. Her conformation is atrocious). I’ll give you a thousand bucks if you can find a normal ordinary treed endurance type trail saddle that doesn’t sore up her back after an hour of riding.

[5chestnuts]

[QUOTE=wendy;5993259]

I was under the impression that treed saddles were invented long ago as a way to stabilize the rider in the seat, with absolutely no regard for the horse’s comfort or thoughts about how to aid the horse’s athletic efforts. [/QUOTE]

The treed saddle came about when warfare started employing increasingly extensive metal body armor to the point where a full body shield (head to foot, front to back) was designed which was so heavy that the rider was unable to mount on his own and required a boom and winch – and attendants. It was necessary to insert a wooden (with steel inserts) into the former treeless saddle to support the massive weight, and the pommel and cantle were developed and built up to tremendous height to keep the rider in the saddle. All the charger had to do was thunder at a gallop in a straight line. Anything athletic would have tossed the knight right into the dirt from whence he would find it next to impossible to rise on his own.

Since an interior tree was a western European invention for western European warfare, the rigid saddle stuck with successive western European generations without regard for history moving forward …and the knights fading into history once the gun improved to become a better killing machine. Those big impressive saddles, however, looked rather smashing, and a guy riding in a “war saddle” (even in peace times - which were rare) thought he looked cool - rather like having a Porsche under you. So…the rigid saddle gained a panache of being an upscale accessory for the rider, and followed the western equestrian generations into modern times.

Treeless saddles, however, moved forward with other civilizations into modern times with their own panache - and with a lot more comfort for the horses which were more pony sized and pony shaped - round backed - and thus more suitable to the non-rigid saddle. Europeans (and their descendants) are just slow to relinquish the trappings of the old days.

[howardh]

WOWZA! The usually sweetest and most polite group on COTH, Endurance and Trail Riders, has been officially poked with a stick and it is on fire!

Popcorn popping!

[stylemichelle21]

[QUOTE=Daatje;5993246]
That’s usually the best thing for folks to do! :)[/QUOTE]

Agreed. If you and your horse prefer a treed saddle…good, if you and your horse prefer a treeless saddle…good. It seems like kind of a situational choice.

[GotMyPony]

Howardh, I like your style.
As for treed or treeless/boots or shoes/bits, bitless, hackamores or rope halters… the thing that first impressed me about endurance rides was the complete freedom riders had to choose whatever manner of tack and wardrobe they prefer for themselves and their horses. Safety, comfort, health and fun, that’s what counts. (My first impression of my first ride camp? Woodstock with horses! Loved it!)
So, can’t we all just get along?

[PRS]

[QUOTE=Guilherme;5992233]
BRAVO Dr. Clayton.

The phenomina of excessive pressure has been known for at least a decade and has been regularly denied by the “treeless advocates.” Once again we find the the Law of Physics apply to all of us (even if we’ve never studied Law or Physics).

I’ts also worth noting that the saddle tree was developed by our acestors about two millenia back and weight distribution was one of the reasons why. Too bad for the horses that we don’t study history anymore.

G.[/QUOTE]

Yet there are are still thousands of horses running around with ill fitting treed saddles with excessive pressure points, sore backs, and atrophied muscles from use of same. The saddle tree was developed over 2000 years ago and hasn’t changed much since. The last 20 years or so has seen some incredible technological advances in materials (slow recovery foams etc) that make treeless saddles a much more viable option than the piece of leather and wool our ancesters had to work with. I have to say that I value my horses’ opinion on the subject way more than some stranger on the internet and he has clearly proclaimed himself in favor of my Sensation Hybrid treeless saddle.

Endurance riders (whose horses are regularly checked by vets) are moving to treeless saddles in droves. I really don’t think your argument holds up very well…I hear it all the time…we’ve been doing it this way for 2000 years why change now? Really? That’s all you got? Even if the saddle fits NOW it might not fit a month from now. Even if the saddle fits while the horse is standing motionless, what happens when he lifts his back and starts moving, cantering, doing lateral bends?? If the saddle is rigid HOW can it continue fit a living breathing, moving horse during everthing we ask him to do?

As an aside the “study” ended with no result for or against treeless saddles…Dr. Clayton clearly stated that treed saddles also caused excessive pressure and more testing might need to be done.

[PRS]

[QUOTE=Guilherme;5993232]
And you know I haven’t because…?

As for A2’s dislike of my manner, that’s her business. If she finds me rude I find her incredible.

So we’re back where we usually are, with some folks claiming these are the neatest thing since bottled beer and my asserting they are blister rigs designed to cripple horses.

Folks can make up their own minds as far as I’m concerned.

G.[/QUOTE]

Actually…I introduced my horses to a treeless saddle and let them make up my mind.

[PRS]

[QUOTE=candyappy;5993224]
Is a treeless saddle just like a puffy bareback pad? The Bob Marshall saddles kind of look normal, but others I see seem so thick and puffy. I am just curious what keeps them in place especially if you are using a lot of inserts and padding? How would they be any different than just riding bareback as far as the horse is concerned?[/QUOTE]

My treeless saddle (a Sensation Hybrid) http://www.freedomtreeless.com/G3HT.html ) is much more substanstial than just a bareback pad with stirrups. It has been carefully designed to distribute the weight from the stirrups and girth throughout the entire saddle. It has structure, knee rolls, and a twist and is made from quality leather. It has layered foam making up the pressure distributing panels under the seat. I also use a quality pad made specifically for my saddle with it to further distribute weight and disperse pressure. There are several manufacturers of name brand treeless saddles they are all different in their own way. Some are better than others at distributing pressure, some are better on certain shapes of horses than others. The Sensations work best with horses that have low to medium withers, flat backs and round barrels…that doesn’t mean they can’t work on other shapes. Some models have hard pommel inserts and hard cantles while keeping the seat free of hard parts…the Sensations have no hard parts at all.

[poltroon]

So I don’t care about treed versus treeless saddles. To me, you use the tool that makes you and the horse happiest. Fitting a treed saddle is not easy and especially challenging for a horse whose back shape changes a lot, either over time or while in motion.

But, I don’t understand the claims that a treeless saddle can distribute weight. Pretty much by definition, if you wish to distribute the weight of the rider’s seat to any area not directly under the seat, you need something stiff. No foam, no matter how wonderful, can distribute weight to a place that is not under the force.

The only weight that it could potentially distribute would be the force pulling down on the stirrup attachment.

[Equibrit]

The article is not worth the space it takes up. What is the point of writing something like that, other than to stir up controversy and drive people to your website, so that you can grab those advertising dollars.

[katyb]

[QUOTE=Guilherme;5992233]
BRAVO Dr. Clayton.

The phenomina of excessive pressure has been known for at least a decade and has been regularly denied by the “treeless advocates.” Once again we find the the Law of Physics apply to all of us (even if we’ve never studied Law or Physics).

I’ts also worth noting that the saddle tree was developed by our acestors about two millenia back and weight distribution was one of the reasons why. Too bad for the horses that we don’t study history anymore.

G.[/QUOTE]

Guilherme -

If this article were describing a study on ANY other subject, you would be all over it for the lack of details and insufficient explanation. You can’t turn around and say it is just fine, because it reinforces your (uneducated) beliefs.

[Pcostx]

I would think that Hilary Clayton, BVMS, PhD, Dipl. ACVSMR, MRCVS (boy she has a lot of titles!) would know how to properly devise and conduct a study?

I agree, the article in The Horse is incomplete, I just thought it was interesting that someone had done a study on saddles, both treed and treeless regarding how they distribute weight.

I didn’t want to start a war or make Dr. Clayton look like she isn’t a very educated woman who works hard to help horses through her research.

Maybe this topic should be dropped since the article is lacking in so much important information.

[katyb]

[QUOTE=Guilherme;5993232]
And you know I haven’t because…?

As for A2’s dislike of my manner, that’s her business. If she finds me rude I find her incredible.

So we’re back where we usually are, with some folks claiming these are the neatest thing since bottled beer and my asserting they are blister rigs designed to cripple horses.

Folks can make up their own minds as far as I’m concerned.

G.[/QUOTE]

I know you live within an hour of me. Let’s go riding. Really. I think I can change your mind, without all this talk, talk, talking. As I’ve said repeatedly, the proof is in the pudding. I think this is at least my third time making this suggestion. Put up, or well, you know the rest…

I’ll be at Norris on Thursday, and at Panther Creek on Sunday. Show up!

[pandorasboxx]

I also let my horses choose what works best for them which at this time is a treeless Freeform Classic coupled with a Skito dryback with sheepskin and 1" inserts OR a HAF pad with 3/4" inserts. I also put a Thinline pad underneath for extra protection. This type of set up has been comfortable and stable for both myself and my horse.

I’ve dabbled in endurance with two of my horses for the past several years, finishing a 50 2 weeks ago on my new gelding. He received all A’s at the finish including an A for the back. Not exactly a blister rig.

Plenty of my friends endurance ride in treeless saddles successfully. I also know those who ride successfully in treed and paneled saddles. I don’t follow any saddle dogma that precludes all but one type of saddle since such a wide range factors come into play for a horse and rider team to successfully compete in distance riding sports. There’s a lid for every pot…

It’s important to find the saddle that works. If it’s a treed saddle then have at it. But it is rather silly to make a blanket declaration that treeless saddles crippling blister rigs when the evidence of endurance riders and endurance vets over many, many miles proves that an incorrect.

Bottom line, do what works for you and your horse. I know that if my current setup were to not work in the future, I wouldn’t hesitate to try other saddles, including treed.