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Interesting.......watching the clones compete

Sport Horse Breeding
#21

Neither clones nor their progeny nor their descendants may compete under FEI rules in international sport. See:

http://morningside-stud.com/PinkHorses.html

This rule was voted in at the General Assembly of the FEI in 2007, so a majority supported the ban.

Many national federations align their rules with the FEI; some do not. So in some countries clones and their progeny and descendants may compete in national sport but these horses can never advance to international sport.

I do not believe any number of successful clones or their progeny or descendants will lead the FEI to change this rule because deep-seated values are at work here, especially in many/most/all of the core breeding and sport countries that carry the most weight in the FEI.

In previous discussions a number of people advocated simply concealing the pedigree of the clone/progeny/descendant as a way to evade the FEI rule. I am amazed that nobody has called into question the ethics of this action. To me this would be highly unethical and would warrant a ban from sport for a lengthy period – if anyone asked my opinion, it would be a lifetime ban as it would be premeditated and likely would require a conspiracy to implement.

I have no idea if the FEI has taken a view on this but I suspect it has not…yet.

#22

GEMINI (5099615)
Foal Date: 8/28/2008 Verified
Breed: THOROUGHBRED
Color: Grey Sex: S
Sire: GOOD TWIST
Dam: COLDLY NOBLE
Membership Type: Life
Breed Registry Information:
GEMINI (08.019629) - AES

I am curious to know if those AES papers (Angle European Studbook) contain any indication that the horse is a clone.

Not that it would have mattered to USEF, as they don’t seem to have a rule against clones. Also, as we all know, anyone can register any horse with USEF by providing whatever data they want (including made-up pedigree data, made-up foaling date, made-up breeder info, etc., and one can even provide made-up registration papers from their own made-up registry - USEF doesn’t maintain a list of “legitimate registries” versus “illegitimate registries”).

Not saying of course that Gemini’s AES papers are “made-up”, just that it is possible to register a horse with USEF that holds made-up papers, AND that USEF wouldn’t care even if a horse’s papers indicated that it was a clone. Money is money, and USEF will register/record the horse nonetheless.

#23

[QUOTE=tom;5927605]
In previous discussions a number of people advocated simply concealing the pedigree of the clone/progeny/descendant as a way to evade the FEI rule. I am amazed that nobody has called into question the ethics of this action. To me this would be highly unethical and would warrant a ban from sport for a lengthy period – if anyone asked my opinion, it would be a lifetime ban as it would be premeditated and likely would require a conspiracy to implement. [/QUOTE]

Tom, I agree. I also was shocked at the attitude of some folks that it would be “okay” to conceal/lie about the pedigree of a clone or clone descendant to get around the FEI rule. :eek:

#24

[QUOTE=tom;5927605]
Neither clones nor their progeny nor their descendants may compete under FEI rules in international sport. See:

http://morningside-stud.com/PinkHorses.html

This rule was voted in at the General Assembly of the FEI in 2007, so a majority supported the ban.

Many national federations align their rules with the FEI; some do not. So in some countries clones and their progeny and descendants may compete in national sport but these horses can never advance to international sport.

I do not believe any number of successful clones or their progeny or descendants will lead the FEI to change this rule because deep-seated values are at work here, especially in many/most/all of the core breeding and sport countries that carry the most weight in the FEI.

In previous discussions a number of people advocated simply concealing the pedigree of the clone/progeny/descendant as a way to evade the FEI rule. I am amazed that nobody has called into question the ethics of this action. To me this would be highly unethical and would warrant a ban from sport for a lengthy period – if anyone asked my opinion, it would be a lifetime ban as it would be premeditated and likely would require a conspiracy to implement.

I have no idea if the FEI has taken a view on this but I suspect it has not…yet.[/QUOTE]

Tom
I’ve read your excellent article but I’d like a link to something on the FEI website that states clones are ineligible to compete in International Sport.
Most jumpers in the US do not compete in International events anyway so it probably makes no difference to the owner one way or another. BUT the owner is a powerful person in US equestrian sport and US sport horse breeding and if they wanted to compete internationally I’m sure they could do a good job of lobbying the FEI.

Personally I think it’s a silly rule and shows how out of step FEI is with reality.

But we don’t even know if their intent is to compete or not.
I’d breed to Gemini in a heartbeat but I suspect he will not have an open book.

#25

[QUOTE=tom;5927605]
Neither clones nor their progeny nor their descendants may compete under FEI rules in international sport. See:

http://morningside-stud.com/PinkHorses.html

This rule was voted in at the General Assembly of the FEI in 2007, so a majority supported the ban.

Many national federations align their rules with the FEI; some do not. So in some countries clones and their progeny and descendants may compete in national sport but these horses can never advance to international sport.

I do not believe any number of successful clones or their progeny or descendants will lead the FEI to change this rule because deep-seated values are at work here, especially in many/most/all of the core breeding and sport countries that carry the most weight in the FEI.

In previous discussions a number of people advocated simply concealing the pedigree of the clone/progeny/descendant as a way to evade the FEI rule. I am amazed that nobody has called into question the ethics of this action. To me this would be highly unethical and would warrant a ban from sport for a lengthy period – if anyone asked my opinion, it would be a lifetime ban as it would be premeditated and likely would require a conspiracy to implement.

I have no idea if the FEI has taken a view on this but I suspect it has not…yet.[/QUOTE]

This is what I was thinking of, my mistake.

#26

I was at WIHS this past weekend and grabbed myself a pamphlet on Gemini. They are standing him to the public this year. I still haven’t quite figured out my standing ground on this subject. On one side I’m absolutely fascinated at the idea of the great Gem Twist’s genes being available for breeding. On the other hand I’m next to terrified! haha.
I’m also a little hopeful, being that Gem (and now Gemini) was 100% Thoroughbred, that TB’s will get a little more notice if Gemini does become successful. If there is any chance of Gemini being like Gem Twist it will be. Frank raised, broke, trained, and competed Gem’s father all the way up to the top levels. Then he did it again with Gem. Who’s to say it can’t be done a third time with Gemini? Only time will tell I suppose.
While right now there are rules barring clones and clone products from FEI competition, who’s to say that rule will last. If clones start winning they’ll eventually have to let them in. I’m not sure if that is a good thing or not. . . if this is successful I hate for top level competition to become Gem Twist, Sapphire, Ratina Z, etc. competing against each other. . . or even themselves.

#27

Why would it be exciting for TB’s? He isn’t a TB and will never really be seen as one. If people had wanted to keep those bloodlines around they should have used them when they had a chance instead of waiting for a clone.

And now lying about the identity of any horses by and out of clones to “get away” with having these incredible bloodlines.

Wow. Under U.S. Breeders And The Market, accountability should probably matter a little. But I would imagine the resulting offspring will just be something to talk about. An odd person with a decent mare may gamble on the laws being changed by the time little clone baby grows up. I don’t know this is all just a bit strange.

Terri

#28

How can the owners of Gemini be his breeders? Breeding is considered the act of mating stallion and mare together thus producing a foal which is far from what Gemini was ‘made’ like…
The entire cloning technique will do breeding no good. The influence of environmental factors in sport horse breeding can not be valued enough as we can all see over and over again. Take only one look at the ET clone (this is the only one I have ever seen a video from that had the clone ‘performing’ under saddle) and it is plain to see nature won’t be cheated quite so easily. The brilliance of a star will always remain something grand where all pieces and coincidences fall together: Right genetics, matching upbringing and socialisation and the long way of training an individual athlete from the early stages of ‘carrying a rider around’ all the way into top class competition.
Never will any of the cloned horses reach this stage. Wayy to many boxes not checked. Just have a look and you see…

#29

Competing a clone is not the main objective, it’s obvious that the goal is to keep in the gene pool of sport horses the genes of exceptional animals that could not breed (geldings, early death, …)

Tom, I don’t think you are living in a different planet, because it’s obvious that when ethics and $$$ compete, most of the time, unfortunately, $$$ wins.
If unadapted rules are unforced, people will find ways…

Terri, I think Gemini is a TB, registered or not with the Jockey Club doesn’t make a difference, IMHO.

Karen, we need to wait some years before finding out what clones can bring to the breeding world, as I said before, competing the clone is not what is important.

#30

to my point in the first place andy…

whether the clones were “created” to perform or not, the performance record of the donor is the measuring stick, and folks would like to find out if they could measure up to the donor in the performance arena. No body will be beating down doors to breed to a clone (registerable or not) that was miserable in the arena, do you think?
If…say…through the bulls competing, and there are quite a few now by different donors, it becomes a PREDICTABLE FACTOR that they are “just a notch under the donor in the performance arena”, is that worth it in the upper level arena horse world? Another question, at the top level in jumping, is “just a notch under” even close to good enough? For instance, do you think a cloned Hickstead performing at “just a notch under” will be able to get over those bigger jumps? Another question, do the bloodlines of the clones (remember we are considering here that clones are “just a notch under”) bring that “notch under” to their resulting foals, it stands to reason they would, doesn’t it?

My point in the first place, while watching the clones compete in the PBR finals, is that maybe they can help find answers to the horse clone questions, in a few areas. The bull breeders are right now and have been for a few years now, creating the clones to be able to breed with…and now compete with. Their performance time curve is a LOT shorter than the performance time curve of an international jumper, AND if they are already bucking, I feel quite certain they are already breeding. It will be interesting to see how both those avenues unfold for them. I think the bulls can shead some light on to the questions and dilemmas we have with the horses. And, in an even closer situation, the cutting horse folks are producing quite a few clones as well, and they are on the same time frame (unfortunately, but that is a different conversation) as the bulls in their performance careers, so I think a few of the questions about clones in general are about to BEGIN to be answered.

I just thought it was interesting to see the bulls in action (there were 5, 4 Panhandle Slims and a Doctor Proctor clone) and HEAR what the cowboys that knew both the donor and now the clones had to say about them. I’ll keep ya posted from the bull side of things as they develop and are being talked about from the breeders and the riders.

#31

[QUOTE=andy.smaga;5934410]

Terri, I think Gemini is a TB, registered or not with the Jockey Club doesn’t make a difference, IMHO.[/QUOTE]
He’s JC registered under the name of “Icey Twist”.

#32

Icey Twist is Gem Twist’s JC name. The clone (Gemini) is not eligible for JC registration.

#33

[QUOTE=paintjumper;5934474]
whether the clones were “created” to perform or not, the performance record of the donor is the measuring stick, and folks would like to find out if they could measure up to the donor in the performance arena. No body will be beating down doors to breed to a clone (registerable or not) that was miserable in the arena, do you think? [/QUOTE]

I don’t think so, because what a breeder is trying to get is the genes of the original donor and with a clone that’s what he get.

If…say…through the bulls competing, and there are quite a few now by different donors, it becomes a PREDICTABLE FACTOR that they are “just a notch under the donor in the performance arena”, is that worth it in the upper level arena horse world? Another question, at the top level in jumping, is “just a notch under” even close to good enough? For instance, do you think a cloned Hickstead performing at “just a notch under” will be able to get over those bigger jumps? Another question, do the bloodlines of the clones (remember we are considering here that clones are “just a notch under”) bring that “notch under” to their resulting foals, it stands to reason they would, doesn’t it?

But the bloodlines of the clone are the same than the bloodline of the donor.

My point in the first place, while watching the clones compete in the PBR finals, is that maybe they can help find answers to the horse clone questions, in a few areas. The bull breeders are right now and have been for a few years now, creating the clones to be able to breed with…and now compete with. Their performance time curve is a LOT shorter than the performance time curve of an international jumper, AND if they are already bucking, I feel quite certain they are already breeding. It will be interesting to see how both those avenues unfold for them. I think the bulls can shead some light on to the questions and dilemmas we have with the horses. And, in an even closer situation, the cutting horse folks are producing quite a few clones as well, and they are on the same time frame (unfortunately, but that is a different conversation) as the bulls in their performance careers, so I think a few of the questions about clones in general are about to BEGIN to be answered.

The answer will be answered when we will have a reasonable number of foals from the donor and from the clone and we can then measure objectively the sport quality of the 2 groups and find if they are equal or if the group sired by the donor is performing better or worst than the group sired by the clone.
This is the only thing that should matter for a breeder.

I just thought it was interesting to see the bulls in action (there were 5, 4 Panhandle Slims and a Doctor Proctor clone) and HEAR what the cowboys that knew both the donor and now the clones had to say about them. I’ll keep ya posted from the bull side of things as they develop and are being talked about from the breeders and the riders.

I appreciate, keeping us posted specially from the breeders perspective, thanks.
This is an important issue for the future of breeding sport horses and every effort that will shed some light on the subject is very welcomed.

#34

Sorry if this has been pointed out already, but the Chapots own Gemini, right? Frank Chapot bred Gem Twist and Gem Twist’s sire Good Twist was FC’s GP mount. So the Chapots did breed Gem Twist, but no I agree they did not breed Gemini, they cloned Gem Twist.

#35

I do not recall anyone advocating falsifying or hiding the origins of a clone descendent. That is a false characterization of others’ discussions. Some people correctly pointed out the difficulty of enforcement and that someone else (not the people pointing this out) may take the route of having an unknown with an FEI passport, especially if these offspring end up unregistered.

The real difficult part of the FEI discussion is not really about the direct offspring of a clone, but about the descendents down the line. i.e., enforcement of this policy of descendents for generations. If the offspring are unregistered, those offspring or the descendents down the line may become unknowns that end up in the breeding population. As they are sold and moved around industry, people who genuinely do not know the genetic history will come to own these descendents. Lots of people do not know anything about even the named 2nd or 3rd generation horses in a pedigree. They will certainly not know details about an unknown, and also the unknown will eventually fall off of the printable pedigree.

Because some registries will accept unknowns under CP or Book II with potential to upgrade into main books, how will the FEI ever enforce this policy for generations of descendents? The grand daughters and grand sons will have papers, and the owner of said horses actually may not know that the unknown in pedigree is a clone or may not even be aware of an unknown further generations back. There are plenty of horses in America with unknowns in their pedigrees, and there are even more in UK and Ireland. There is plenty of sales barn trade where the papers have genuinely been lost some time ago, and the sport buyers really don’t care anyway. They are just looking for a good jumper for example. Eventually someone is going to come across a good sport mare with a clone somewhere in the pedigree, compete it for a while, and then after retirement take it to an approval for CP or Book II breeding - all without knowing the clone history.

These are all just the facts of the industry that the FEI has to deal with in terms of the difficulty of enforcing the offspring/descendent policy.

A concern with the policy regarding offspring is that it will force creation of the very problem that I just described, because breeders using those stallions will keep the offspring unregistered, much like sport TBs are mostly unregistered due to the JC policy of live cover.

#36

[QUOTE=paintjumper;5934474]
whether the clones were “created” to perform or not, the performance record of the donor is the measuring stick, and folks would like to find out if they could measure up to the donor in the performance arena. No body will be beating down doors to breed to a clone (registerable or not) that was miserable in the arena, do you think?
.[/QUOTE]

Well, yes, there are a lot of reasons to try Gemini as a breeding stallion even if he is a dud in the ring. Gem Twist was gelded because he was too much of a handful as a stallion, it is not at all unlikely that Gemini will not perform to his level if he has any of that propensity.

But the point is that Gemini is genetically identical to Gem Twist. Breeding to Gemini is like breeding to Gem Twist. He would never have to step foot in the ring to make that prospect an interesting one.

Likeaninja, what are the details on Gemini? Is he just open to a few select mares or anyone? Stud fee?

#37

To me this is the reason why I don’t think the FEI should even have a rule regarding clones competing. The likelihood of having 5 Sapphire’s competing against one another in the Olympics in 15 years is essentially ZERO. So why would we create a rule that disallows those animals AND their offspring? A rule which is largely unenforceable, and easy to get around by some falsification either intentionally, or in the case of later owners, unintentionally. Just seems very short-sighted and knee-jerk reaction in my mind.

#38

[QUOTE=Zaffiro Farm;5935114]

Because some registries will accept unknowns under CP or Book II with potential to upgrade into main books, how will the FEI ever enforce this policy for generations of descendents? The grand daughters and grand sons will have papers, and the owner of said horses actually may not know that the unknown in pedigree is a clone or may not even be aware of an unknown further generations back. There are plenty of horses in America with unknowns in their pedigrees, and there are even more in UK and Ireland. There is plenty of sales barn trade where the papers have genuinely been lost some time ago, and the sport buyers really don’t care anyway. They are just looking for a good jumper for example. Eventually someone is going to come across a good sport mare with a clone somewhere in the pedigree, compete it for a while, and then after retirement take it to an approval for CP or Book II breeding - all without knowing the clone history.

.[/QUOTE]

There is no requirement that a horse be recorded or registered with any breed or breed registry to obtain an FEI passport.

For example, Cedric competed internationally when his breeding was listed as Unknown.

#39

[QUOTE=fordtraktor;5935189]
Well, yes, there are a lot of reasons to try Gemini as a breeding stallion even if he is a dud in the ring. Gem Twist was gelded because he was too much of a handful as a stallion, it is not at all unlikely that Gemini will not perform to his level if he has any of that propensity.

But the point is that Gemini is genetically identical to Gem Twist. Breeding to Gemini is like breeding to Gem Twist. He would never have to step foot in the ring to make that prospect an interesting one.

Likeaninja, what are the details on Gemini? Is he just open to a few select mares or anyone? Stud fee?[/QUOTE]

So why would anyone breed to an unmanageable stallion (since the clone is just like the donor) when they can breed to one that is manageable with it’s balls intact?

#40

Similarly, Sportscar has an FEI pasport, and her origins are completely unknown- she was initially purchased off the “meat truck” at the Marshall auction.

Even if nobody is deliberately concealing information, there WILL BE descendants of clones for which that fact is REALLY “unknown”

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