I think about this a lot - there’s an idea that horses progressing younger “break down” faster as a rule and I’m not sure that’s necessarily true. I know just as many horses without intense training that fall apart.
6 Likes
i know about dogs, but not horses. And it’s true with them. I think my take on this is that within a highly competitive group there will be a significantly higher percentage of trainers that will push their animals too hard/too fast.
1 Like
From Timing & Rate of Skeletal Maturation in Horses by Dr. Deb Bennett, Ph.D;
"A normal horse has 32 vertebrae between the back of the skull and the root of the dock, and there are several growth plates on each one, the most important of which is the one capping the centrum.
These do not finally fuse until the horse is at least 5 ½ years old (and this figure applies to a small-sized, scrubby, range-raised mare. The taller your horse and the longer its neck, the later the last fusions will occur. And for a male – is this a surprise? – you add six months. So, for example, a 17-hand Thoroughbred, Saddlebred or Warmblood gelding may not be fully mature until his 8th year – something that owners of such individuals have often told me that they “suspected”)"
3 Likes
So do you believe horses should be broke to saddle at 8?
I’m sure that no one is saying that. But putting a horse into hard work that puts extreme stress on joints, including the back, at an early age is asking for trouble.
5 Likes
I’ve always wondered if there are any studies that show longevity within disciplines outside of racing.
For example, a lot of western riders start their horses at 2 or 3. A lot of round pen work as well, but this doesn’t guarantee anything in terms of soundness.
Obviously a horse can be started before full skeletal development and have a long career. There are a lot of factors at play, not just including starting age.
1 Like
This is a great study if you’ve got time to read through it. While it’s still based on racing, it was really interesting.
2 Likes
One major difference between race horses and riding horses, especially dressage horses, is that race horses basically travel in straight lines and very gentle curves. The stress of torque on the joints is far less in race horses.
2 Likes
Thanks so much for sharing that. I have not seen that study and it is fascinating. I would not have expected those results. There are a lot of traditional ideas that have been proven to be incorrect with these studies.
I think this is interesting. My issue with Jovian being campaigned at this level is that he is clearly not strong enough. Why put him under the stress of competition at this level? But I have been thinking a lot about why some horses can look like a GP horse as a four year old and another one doesn’t get there until they are fully matured. I have two young horses, both very well dressage bred (one is Toto Jr/Furst Heinrich and the other is Vitalis x Damon Hill). They are completely different types!!! The Toto Jr. is four, is just under saddle, but has been very butt high through his growth and I think will be late to mature and come up in the withers. He has the most free shoulder, is very laterally elastic, and has a super hind leg, but because he is still butt high, you cannot ask him for the level of work and frame needed to be successful for the young horse tests. You can see, though, that he will have all the power and all the elasticity needed to do upper level work, once he grows up. The other one is two, has never been butt high, is very uphill in front, is more mentally mature and would probably make a nice young horse test prospect. He will be ready to start at age 3 (I do not believe in starting them in their 2 year old year, but as a 2 year old, he is already 16 hands, so…). Still, I would not show him at a level where he is not confirmed. I do think there are certain types of horses that can do work earlier than others, but in the end, I don’t think it makes one more competitive than the other at Grand Prix–and especially not if you do it too early just because they can and break them (physically or mentally).
8 Likes
The famous stallion De Niro was also competing at GP at age 8. He won the German championships for professional riders (age 8) and then won the German Dressage Derby a few years later. IIRC, he did minimal showing after that - a few shows in Young Riders with his owner’s daughter, but not much else (he had been bought at the Hanoverian stallion licensing by a stallion station and his main purpose in life was as a breeding stallion).
A quote from his rider/trainer, Dolf Dietrem-Keller:
De Niro was very trainable. He learned the one-tempi changes in only two days as a six-year-old. He did them every day from then on. We tried Piaffe and Passage very early at home. De Niro accepted the aids very well. Because of his great talent, he never really encountered stress during his entire training.
His legacy as a sire was quite notable - he was a noted producer of GP horses and was #1 in the WBFSH sire rankings for dressage for many years. He was still in 4th place in 2019 and 10th place in in 2020 - and possibly could have been in the top 10 in 2021 except I believe that is the year that his son Desperados did not show much at all due to injury.
My guess is that Helgstrand maybe has De Niro in the back of his mind and is hoping to follow that same trajectory with Jovian. So perhaps he isn’t really thinking about Jovian’s longevity as a competition horse, but rather to get him noticed by the breeders so he can be sold to a top stallion station for an astronomical price. And he is no doubt perfectly willing to keep him for his own stallion station if he doesn’t get the price he wants.
The big difference between De Niro and Jovian though is the owners. As mentioned, De Niro was owned by someone whose main focus and line of business was running a stud farm. Helgstrand’s business model is three-pronged - stud farm, selling, showing. And since he certainly doesn’t seem to mind going down centerline himself, he very well may try to keep Jovian out competing for a while as long as the horse can deal with the physical and mental stresses of breeding, training, and competing. As we all know, many very, very talented horses don’t hold up (Totilas being one prime example).
1 Like
@Cowgirl - I agree re the strength issue, going back to the article which said he was launched into the GP tour w/out having turned 8… I have a young horse, smaller, fancy, athletic who just turned 9. He has had the parts for quite awhile, but not the strength to carry himself and stay relaxed all the way thru the test. The pro he is with has taught me a lot about patience and the things you shouldn’t rush.
@DownYonder - interesting thought re get him noticed and then make him a breeding stallion.
Yes, I have no doubt that is in Helgstrand’s mind. Early in his career, he was the trainer for Blu Horse Stud so has a very good background regarding working with breeding stallions, and understands their importance to the bottom line of a stud farm. Since they are the #1 asset of a stud farm, and the main income generator, their ability to fulfill their breeding duties has to be paramount. And the main way to get breeders flocking to a stallion is to get him out early and showcase his talents, and then carefully protect him as much as possible from overuse through too much breeding coupled with too much training.
I will also add that regarding the comparison of Jovian to Totilas, remember that there has always been a fierce rivalry between the Germans and the Dutch in equestrian sport. There were real concerns in Germany that Totilas was going to help put the Dutch on top of the podium at the 2012 Olympics - and he probably would have, which was a prospect that had many Germans “clutching their pearls” so to speak. Paul Schockemoehle’s decision to buy him was not only to get a top, top fantastic new addition to his stallion line-up, but also to get the horse out from under the Dutch flag.
It will be interesting to see if Helgstrand feels that same type of pressure to “beat the Germans.” The Danish team has become very, very strong in recent years and it would be a huge feather in their cap if they can top the podium at major competitions in the coming years. They are actually favored to win Gold at the upcoming World Championships but Helgstrand/Jovian are not on the primary team - listed as reserves instead - but they could be contenders for Paris 2024 assuming the horse stays sound and in Helgstrand’s ownership.
I assume that is the plan, and I think it will be successful. I know someone with a Jovian baby and she is thrilled with her athleticism and potential.
You have a foal by Jovian?
Helgstrand is the best funded stallion station in the world right now, and in partnership with the only other possible contender, Schockemohle. Once they got private equity capital - there was no competition.
There is some motivation for them in the competition arena, but they are far more interested in controlling the global dressage breeding and sales market. Their acquisition moves and property investments make that pretty obvious.
I have one by Revolution, and I have to say - that horse really shows the best traits of his breed as far as trainability and athleticism. Helgstrand seems to be at least in some of their stallions really thinking about the trainability of the offspring which was…missing from upper level breeding for awhile. I’d have another Revolution and Jovian looks like a similar sort.
5 Likes
I saw one listed for sale yesterday. Not cheap!
He looks to be a good producer. I don’t want his kind mind fried.
Jovian is a carrier of Fragile foal syndrome (FFS) type I, formerly known as Warmblood fragile foal syndrome (WFFS), a recessive inherited connective tissue defect characterized by hyperextensible joints and abnormally thin fragile skin and mucous membranes. = that should really matter to 21st century breeders.
7 Likes
It should be understood before breeding but at the same time it is much easier to prevent affected by DNA testing before breeding.
Carrier bred to a clear CANNOT produce affected.
Not sure if breeders are utilizing appropriate DNA testing like reputable dog breeders are.
Dog owners who are reputable test and tell. We also do not throw the baby out with the bath water.
If the owner of Jovian wanted to be reputable they could require mares are tested before breeding. Then mare owners would be equally responsible as they should be.
4 Likes
