Interpreting scores

[lidador]

[QUOTE=Silverbridge;8875793]

Any competitor who shows in several recognized shows per season and in more than one place learns this very quickly. The same movement done the same way can score dramatically differently from judge to judge. And sometimes it’s done even BETTER than at the last outing, yet, it scores lower. [/QUOTE]

Any idea what it means if the same movement is done with obviously different quality yet gets the same score from different judges, regardless of how the rest of the test went?

I’ve been reliably hitting 7-7.5 on my free walk all year, even though my best and worst tests are 12 points apart and my gaits scores have ranged from 5.5 to 7. One of my worst free walks (more rushing than marching) of the year was on my highest-scoring test – does that mean I may have missed out on an 8+??

(These are all eventing tests, fwiw.)

[eternalbeginner]

I don’t know about US but in Europe judges are constantly encouraged to abide by the FEI Dressage Judging Guidelines. I have the book and it is interesting but not an easy reading in any way!!

There are several criteria to be taken into account, from precision (where the movement is performed) to the several steps of the training scale. The more down the training scale is the fault, the heavier it should be penalised, eg, a fault in rhythm that it is the first step, should be penalised heavily if it is consistent during the movement.

I don’t know if I could copy the part relating the marks as it is very enlightening, because of the Copyright.

The one thing I can say is that judges are encouraged to be looking for the good things in the horse, to start let’s say with an 8 in mind and going from that down depending on mistakes, faults, flaws etc. 9 and 10 are reserved for those horses with absolutely brilliant gaits and PERFECTION in the execution, so should not be easily awarded.

And independently of the importance of the show, there are always 3 judges so marks are not dependent on one judge’s humour that day. Important shows (regional and national) will have 5 judges, and international shows 7 judges at the highest levels.

[eternalbeginner]

Of course, all above said about judges is what is being aimed at, it does not mean that judges consult the book or have even read it. Even if they have read it and mean to abide by it, they are human, and the mark for a movement has to be decided in a fraction, it takes a lot of practice to be able to review the training scale and the guidelines for each independent movement and place the mark in an appropriate position regarding the other riders that day!!!

And on top of that, some judges have personal interpretations about whether some faults should be heavily penalised or not. I scribbed for a judge that would routinely penalise young horses being behind the vertical. And for another that would penalise horses whose back muscles were not adequately built.

That is why more and more judges are needed when you want to have a non biased score, and even then, sometimes there are big differences in the scores.

[AZ_TD]

[QUOTE=lidador;8876167]
Any idea what it means if the same movement is done with obviously different quality yet gets the same score from different judges, regardless of how the rest of the test went?

I’ve been reliably hitting 7-7.5 on my free walk all year, even though my best and worst tests are 12 points apart and my gaits scores have ranged from 5.5 to 7. One of my worst free walks (more rushing than marching) of the year was on my highest-scoring test – does that mean I may have missed out on an 8+??

(These are all eventing tests, fwiw.)[/QUOTE]

Some eventing judges have not gone through the dressage judge training program, and only judge events. I think that they may not have the same experience in judging.

[MysticOakRanch]

[QUOTE=eternalbeginner;8876300]
I don’t know about US but in Europe judges are constantly encouraged to abide by the FEI Dressage Judging Guidelines. I have the book and it is interesting but not an easy reading in any way!!.[/QUOTE]

Dressage judges read EVERYTHING and get a lot of training. They judge very much in the formula you used above - Basics + Criteria of the Movement +/- Modifiers = score for each movement. This is taught from the very beginning in the L Program. Along with looking for the good - anyone who has gone through any judge training will tell you, it is FAR EASIER to see what is wrong then what is right.

Remember though, all judge’s are human beings - they must create their own internal “scale” - there is so much that goes on in each movement. Some judges more naturally start with a 7 and work up or down, some more naturally start with a 6 and go up or down. Some judges are more bothered by “behind the vertical”, some are more bothered by stiff backs, some are more bothered by short strides, etc. Some judges have more training in rider biomechanics. And all judges - all PEOPLE - have their own biases and preferences. So there is some human factor that plays into judging.

The more you show, the more you realize this. Judges are highly educated - that doesn’t mean they are perfect. And that goes for European judges, US judges, and judges anywhere else.

[Silverbridge]

[QUOTE=MysticOakRanch;8876505]

Remember though, all judge’s are human beings - they must create their own internal “scale” - there is so much that goes on in each movement. Some judges more naturally start with a 7 and work up or down, some more naturally start with a 6 and go up or down. Some judges are more bothered by “behind the vertical”, some are more bothered by stiff backs, some are more bothered by short strides, etc. Some judges have more training in rider biomechanics. And all judges - all PEOPLE - have their own biases and preferences. So there is some human factor that plays into judging. [/QUOTE]

Exactly.

To use the poster above’s example of earning 7 in the Free Walk:

I’ve scribed for the L program where judging the Free Walk was discussed, and have read articles describing the ideal Free Walk, written by the L program instructors.

And in both instances, judges and competitors are advised not to pay too much attention to the height of the horse’s head in the Free Walk. Instead, they say, see how the horse uses his whole body. Is he active and swinging? Is he marching in an even tempo? Is there an overtrack? Is there any lateral tendency? These, we are advised, are what are to be scored against the ideal. Not the height of the head and neck.

Then if you watch a bunch of International-level top horses, at GP or thereabouts, you will often see that the best Extended Walks hold to this ideal. Watch videos of the Olympics. The horses’ necks stretch forward much more than down, as they march along in FW. No lateral tendency, great overstride. Just what is being advised. That means we all aim for that, right?

So you show yourself at Training Level or First Level in Des Moines or Atlanta or even Wellington and you get a few 7s or 7.5s or even an 8 for just such a free walk. You’re on the correct path, yes? And then, you show at your next show and the judge scores you a 6 in the FW and the comment says, “Neck needs to be lower”. And then you ride it two weeks later and get a 6.5, and the comment, “Reaches forward but not down”.

So which is it? You thought you had an 8 walk in the making. You thought you were emulating Valegro’s extended walk. You thought you were doing just as the top judges advise and as the judges in training are taught. And then, you learn that what you were told is incorrect, and what you practice, is NOT what that “they” are looking for.

The answer is that it depends on who is assigning the numbers on any given day. It depends on who the “they” is. And how the good walk score affects the overall gaits score, with its coefficient, is entirely preferential. You can get 7.5 on both walks, 7s and 8s all through the canter portion, and still be assigned a 6.5 for gaits.

That’s dressage showing.

The more you get out there in rated competition, and before more experienced judges, the more you begin to see a pattern or a consensus for what you’re doing right, and what needs improvement.

But if you try to interpret every detail and number in every box from every show, and wonder what it means to the big picture, and THEN try to respond to each number or instructive comment by adjusting your training? You could find yourself in an endless cycle of trying to please “them” and of mentally processing data as you march along.

I think this is why so many people love dressage but stick to clinics, training, and the occasional schooling show as they work to improve the horse and advance up the levels. There’s an element of unfairness and of gamesmanship in which many people just don’t want to participate.

It just is what it is.

[SaddleFitterVA]

@Xanthoria;8872546

Agree with this.

I also tend to think:

40s and below: You or the judge are having a really bad day, or you need to move down a level
50s: You’re at the right level but you’re not quite there
60s: Respectable - keep working
70s: Great! Ready to move up if consistent.
80s and above: Time to move up.

Bwahaha…80s and above.

Yeah right. I may never get a 70 with my current horse. EVER. If I do, fantastic. But, I personally consider consistently in the 60s, I’ve mastered the concepts and will move up. I am working towards my USDF medals, and have no delusions of grandeur about championships, or olympics.

I am an amateur, with one decent dressage horse, but we will never get an 80. I don’t think Charlotte D could get an 80 on my mare. As lovely and perfect as I consider my mare to be.

That said, when you blow a coefficient…to the tune of a 1…that really knocks your score down…ask me how I know! :lol:

Do I love to see sub 60 scores when I look at my record on Centerline? Nah…does it really matter? No, I’m just an amateur learning to ride my purchased as a yearling, horse, one lesson at a time.

[digihorse]

@Silverbridge;8876649

Exactly.

Then if you watch a bunch of International-level top horses, at GP or thereabouts, you will often see that the best Free Walks hold to this ideal. Watch videos of the Olympics. The horses’ necks stretch forward much more than down, as they march along in FW. No lateral tendency, great overstride. Just what is being advised. That means we all aim for that, right?

Sorry. I just have to poke at this part of the quoted post. There is NO freewalk above 2nd level, and their certainly is none at FEI/GP. It is an extended walk, meant to be done on contact. If you replicate that as a Freewalk, you should be marked down, as it would not fulfill the requirements of a freewalk which is on a loose rein.

From the rule book: Free Walk. The free walk is a pace of relaxation in which the horse is allowed complete freedom to lower and stretch out his head and neck. The degree of ground cover and length of strides, with hind feet stepping clearly in front of the footprints of the front feet, are essential to the quality of the free walk.

Extended walk. The horse covers as much ground as possible, without haste and without losing the regularity of the steps. The hind feet touch the ground clearly in front of the hoof prints of the fore feet. The rider allows the horse to stretch out the head and neck (forward and downwards) without losing contact with the mouth and control of the poll. The nose must be clearly in front of the vertical

Interpreting scores is about understanding what you are actually supposed to be demonstrating at a specific level of training and all that that requirement means.

[Silverbridge]

[QUOTE=digihorse;8877620]
Sorry. I just have to poke at this part of the quoted post. There is NO freewalk above 2nd level, and their certainly is none at FEI/GP.[/QUOTE]

Right, extended walk, you are correct.

Same point holds however, that different judges have different interpretations and preferences for what is the ideal FW, or Extended Walk, in comparison to Medium (low level) or collected (upper level) walks. As you point out, the description of the Free Walk says “stretch out his head and neck” and some judges want it not only out, but down. Others do not want that. Extended Walk as you’ve quoted says “head and neck forwards and downwards” and yet horses get high marks with it scarcely going downwards, only sort of telescoping forward. It’s interesting how subjective it is and how much it varies.

Very unlikely that someone will get knocked for showing an extended walk in a lower level test, in the same way it’s unlikely someone will get knocked showing a true medium trot in First Level when only a lengthening is called for.

But you are right. I’ll edit my post to make it make adhere to the correct directives. :o

[Fulmer]

[QUOTE=Velvet;8874687]
I don’t assume tough judging. Depends on the region you live in. Some places still have horrible ideas of what good dressage really is. They’ve never seen it and even though they have good coaches clinic in their area, the local instructors either don’t ride, don’t attend, or don’t learn well enough to retain the information and go back on old habits.[/QUOTE]

This! So much this!

I currently live in the Mid-South. However, I have lived in and been involved in dressage communities in six different states. I have seen quite the variety of things, let’s just put it that way.

I have a friend who recently got scores in the low 50’s with two different judges, at First Level. Sadly, she blamed the judges, yet these judges both average in the mid-60’s, per Dressage Detective.

In fact, for both shows, the entire barn (it was a home show) averaged in the low to mid 50’s. The only breakthrough score was a horse that trailered in from elsewhere!

Unfortunately, her trainer is sub-par, and so is most of the instruction in her community, so she literally doesn’t know better…or it’s a case of willful ignorance, depending on how you see it. For example this person is also “teaching her horse to piaffe” and using a double - and the encouragement of her trainer. I mean, maybe I’m crazy, and a horse that runs away at the canter really is ready for piaffe, but last I checked that’s probably not the best decision ever. :lol:

[Zonderpaard]

[QUOTE=Silverbridge;8877660]
Right, extended walk, you are correct.

Same point holds however, that different judges have different interpretations and preferences for what is the ideal FW, or Extended Walk, in comparison to Medium (low level) or collected (upper level) walks. As you point out, the description of the Free Walk says “stretch out his head and neck” and some judges want it not only out, but down. Others do not want that. Extended Walk as you’ve quoted says “head and neck forwards and downwards” and yet horses get high marks with it scarcely going downwards, only sort of telescoping forward. It’s interesting how subjective it is and how much it varies.

Very unlikely that someone will get knocked for showing an extended walk in a lower level test, in the same way it’s unlikely someone will get knocked showing a true medium trot in First Level when only a lengthening is called for.

But you are right. I’ll edit my post to make it make adhere to the correct directives. :o[/QUOTE]

Apart from any unevenness in judges’ preferences, thinking abt the directives.

The GP horse’s head and neck are higher to begin with. Thus the ‘downwards’. Lower level horses are, by definition, less elevated in the head and neck with variation mostly depending on conformation, not degree of training (collection). So a lower level horse that is built rather downhill is not necessarily required to lower his head and neck to attain and display a free walk. A horse with a more uphill build might need to do so.

There is also the issue of encouraging riders at lower levels (who often have more limited training experience) from being given too many ‘requirements’ about the horse’s head and neck. It can encourage the common tendency to focus on the head rather than the rest of the horse. A function of the directives is to encourage correct riding, not just correct test riding.

Or so I was taught . . . .

[Badger]

The judging training programs are SO educational and will help demystify where those numbers come from, so whether it’s doing the L program or offering to be a demo rider or scribing for a judge candidate in the S program, etc., there are a lot of learning opportunities that riders can avail themselves of in order to learn what is going on in the the judge’s booth.

Here are a couple things I’ve heard being taught to judges that have stayed with me:

7=It can be better.
6=It should be better.
5=It must be better.

“A 6 covers a multiple of sins.”

in in other words, there are lots of ways to fall short of “good” aka 8 on a movement.