From what those have written who know you, I say go for it. I started breeding when I had to stop riding. My hole was bigger and blacker. :lol: Hoping you make it a go and love every minute!
[QUOTE=Lord Helpus;7234468]
I have ridden all my life, but my back has gotten too bad to seriously ride/compete. However I want to stay in horses, so I am thinking of buying promising young horses and “flipping” them 1 - 2 years later. I am talking about high end hunter and jumper bred horses.
I have a good eye for a young horse and can envision how they will mature. My last 2 young horse purchases have turned out to be wonderful horses; everything I could have hoped for. However, I bought them for me to ride, and now I will be buying them for resale.
What is the age range which will (in general) give me the biggest net gain? I know that the biggest gross price increase is between 1 - 4 or 2 - 4 years old. But, one has to break, train and show the young one to maximize appreciation. Since I cannot do that myself anymore, paying for others to do it will substantially eat into any profit.
In general, how much does a young horse appreciate between weanling --> 2 year old? V. between yearling --> 2 year old? V. yearling and early 3 year old? V. between any of the above ages and a 3 year old with 90 days put on it? (I know that this will have the biggest difference in price, but the cost of keeping and backing the horse might not make this the best investment decision.
Thanks for any advice. I need horses in my life and this seems to be a good way to do it.[/QUOTE]
I haven’t read all the replies, but if you DO have a good eye, “flipping” horses can be one way to actually make $$ with horses. Just like the stock market, you are looking to buy low & sell high. It’s not so much an age, as knowing what the market wants and being able to see that in a horse that (perhaps) others have not seen.
I did this in my youth w/polo ponie prospects. I happened to live near a breeder who just couldn’t seem to stop (little did I know I might someday turn into that person) breeder TBs. These were not world class GI runner material, but they were great polo prospects. They were all at least started u/s and were from 3-6 yrs old. Most players don’t even want to consider a horse till it’s 4-5 yrs old, so I didn’t want to go too young. I paid $500 a piece (this was a while ago), would keep them & ride them for a season, then sell them for $5000 or so.
Currently I know a number of dressage riders who “flip”; again, the biggest market today are middle-aged ammie women, so buy accordingly. I only know one person who does this w/ H/J as that is not really my world, but she buys them at 4-6 yrs of age, started enough to be deemed safe, and then will keep them & show them extensively for 2-3 yrs. By that time they are (usually) packers and I am told there is quite the market for these horses. She was willing to pay $19K for a super prospect with all the boxes checked (again, it was going u/s, just not real trained) and felt confident that she could still make $$ on it if it turned out the way she thought.
Typically, if you find a 4-6 yr old who is just has enough riding time to make them safe, but not enough to make them suitable for the typical ammie, you can get a deal.
But ALWAYS the secret is to flip 'em fairly quickly…before they hurt themselves or go unsound. THAT is the big danger with horses…
Good luck!
[QUOTE=Perfect Pony;7234624]
Yes this! I cannot tell you how many horses I have seen relatively cheap as 2 year olds. 30 days undersaddle the summer of their 3 yo year I see them gorgeous and more than twice the price! 
I think the key would be finding a 2 year old in the fall a breeder doesn’t want to keep over the winter? Throw them in the pasture and get them started the next year? I would not think it a guarantee to make money but I would think it would give you the best shot.[/QUOTE]
If you aren’t going to start them yourselves, this is DEFINITELY not a money maker. Get them already going so that they are safe, but relatively ignorant. Because if you get hurt, you can add thousands in medical bills (yours), lost work, etc. when they lawn dart you into the dirt.
Again, try to reduce the risks – the is the key to investing wisely in anything – including horses.
Example: Fancy yearling who won his inspection & high scores on line + blazingly fashionable pedigree: $12K
OR 4 yr old fairly correct gelding with an average pedigree who has 4 mos u/s and even some trail miles, but doesn’t really know much (perhaps because his trainer doesn’t know much), is personable, attractive and can take a serious joke: $18K.
No question…you will make more $$ with #2 because you already know what you have.
Again, picking horses to “invest” in…it DID use to be a profession. It was called a horsetrader! You just have to spend loads of time looking for that diamond in the rough or that desperate seller looking to unload. You are simply looking for the best deal for your purposes that you can find out there. And that will not be a consistent thing.
Just know your market, pick closest to the money (meaning age/training). In other words, you may LOVE chestnut fillies who are just 6 mos old, but I guarantee you they will not be your best investment.
Hope this all makes sense…
Sorry…I’ve been in the horse business for 4 decades and you all know the old saying…(I can’t remember the exact words) about “starting with a large fortune to make a small fortune”. You might consider pinhooking TB youngsters. Sale prices are soooo oriented to pedigree, conformation, condition and someone’s dreams…not how they “can/will” jump around a course and please a judge’s eye!!
From weanling to yearling or two year olds in training the profit margin is pretty decent. We found that yearlings…already “gently” started under saddle sold very well. You’re still in the horse business, but the buyers are more diverse!! JMO
[QUOTE=crosscreeksh;7235356]
Sorry…I’ve been in the horse business for 4 decades and you all know the old saying…(I can’t remember the exact words) about “starting with a large fortune to make a small fortune”. You might consider pinhooking TB youngsters. Sale prices are soooo oriented to pedigree, conformation, condition and someone’s dreams…not how they “can/will” jump around a course and please a judge’s eye!!
From weanling to yearling or two year olds in training the profit margin is pretty decent. We found that yearlings…already “gently” started under saddle sold very well. You’re still in the horse business, but the buyers are more diverse!! JMO[/QUOTE]
If the OP is not familiar w/ the racing TB market (which is what you are talking about) I would urge her to stay out. At this point (IMHO) she should stay w/what she knows…which is basically picking 1 or 2 “project” horses for the H/J market (unless I misread?).
Again, you need to know your market in anything one chooses to “invest” in; from Wall Street to antiques to real estate. Horses are no different.
I would encourage the OP to make a list of the qualities she wants to start w/in her project and spend a month or two (or three) “shopping”. Not as in “I’m ready to buy,” but just do the research both online and via places like Craig’s List or your local PennySaver for animals that fit what you are looking for. Compare location, age, training, breed, gender, color, etc. etc.
You will soon get a great feel for what a “deal” might be according to YOUR needs/standards. After that it’s up to you to evaluate the horse and train it to a level where it gains value.
My experience with the market is that the “elite” you breed for, the more it narrows your Buyer Base. That is pretty simple to understand, especially in today’s economy. Also, in any (equine) sport, the largest number of participants (and therefore your largest market) are at the bottom/middle levels. NOT at the top.
It’s easier to sell 4 $5000 horses than 1 $20,000 horse. So buying a prospect that might only cost you $1000 (example) and you put 6 mos - year of training in, you might make a profit if you bring your costs down alittle or are in an area that will support a large Buyer Base who can easily afford to pay $7000-15000 for an “average” horse.
Back when I lived in LA and worked polo, the manager/team captain would see all sorts of prospects when cowboys trailered horses down from AZ/MT/ID, etc. Mostly they were ranch horses or roping horses, because they could transfer fairly easily to polo…they already responded to leg/seat & they were used to things whirling around their head/legs. The cowboys were thrilled to get $ 2500 for each horse that suited, the captain put several months of training/playing on them, then sold them for $5-8K each to ammie polo players.
Another example: I don’t ride much anymore because of physical issues, but a few years ago I bought a 7 yr old gelding, very correct & strong, no papers, broke and safe but ignorant. Pretty – bright chestnut w/chrome. Descent gaits. Could do TL-1st level dressage or “western dressage” if he had more training. Anyone with good training skills could have put 6-12 mos on this guy and sold him easily for $4000. Doesn’t sound like much, does it?
But I paid only $450 for him! And there is/was absolutely nothing wrong w/him except lack of advanced training. Those are the kind of deals you look for…
It works. It’s a tough way to earn your entire living, but as a hobby, you can make a profit (overall). At least, I know plenty of folks who have done it or are doing it…the trick is to be able to do everything yourself.
I just went to a tb sale and there were a couple open broodmares that were 5 or 6.
They went for under $400. They were beautiful, decent breeding and good conformation. If I didn’t already have 5 and a foal on the way I would have bought the black mare by black minnaloush
Tb’s are starting to find their way back to the show scene. In my eyes a good horse is a good horse regardless of the breed. My first junior hunter is a tb and he is still in my backyard. 
I have one tb broodmare and she has given me 3 foals and is pregnant. She has out produced herself and I have been very lucky to get very consistent nice foals from her.
I got bit by the breeding bug. I have some very nice young ones, but man is it hard to let them go. I really should sell one and at this point I probably could profit, but it is so hard to let one go!
Which one? Sell the one that’s going or sell the young ones that haven’t had a chance to show all their potential!
I would recommend buying a young one as others have said less attachment. That has been my issue! ;(
Thank you all for your replies. I am very familiar with TB breeding. I was deeply involved in it when I lived in Lexington. I also worked for Lane’s End in its bloodstock department.
I bought mares in Nov and Jan and sold yearlings in Sept.
But I would also haunt the barns on the last days of the sales, looking for H/J prospects. My best flip was buying a Red Ransom 4 year old for $18k and reselling her for $46,000. I did not stop smiling for days. 
My theory in buying horses is that the only difference between an average horse and a good one is the purchase price. Feed/vet/farrier/ etc. all all the same, no matter what quality you own. So I will be looking for 5 figure babies From wandering the Internet last night, it seems that Canada is where I can find the best value in fancy bred young horses.
Thanks to this thread, though, I have decided to focus on 2 year olds, to resell as 3 year olds. What people have said makes a lot of sense. That was the original focus of this thread, and I feel more comfortable now than I did yesterday.
And I can still ride; it just cannot be the focus of my equine ventures. That’s OK; I do not mind being the person who does the trail riding and basic flatwork. I have had a wonderful 60 years showing horses and it is time to change my focus. All good things must come to an end. (PS: I started in the show ring at 3, and went in my first jumping class at 5, and rode ponies at Madison Square Garden when I was 10 — So I am not ready for the old ladies home yet).
But I would still love to hear from breeders on their pricing philosophy. And whether the really good ones do tend to sell as babies, or whether it is possible to buy top stock as 2 year olds.
I know that there has been a lot of discussion on the lack of people to start young horses; perhaps I can help to bridge that gap, one horse at a time.
I think it’s very possible to buy top stock at 2yo and flip them in the range you mentioned for your top TB relatively easily. I would stick to WBs and fashionable warmblood breeds/bloodlines because that’s the easiest way to do it. I would steer far away from TBs unless you’re looking at flipping on the low end. You obviously know the bloodlines and have the ability to buy top TBs, but I think when marketing to the lowest common denominator trainer, you’ll find more trainers that will pay more dollars for WB. Doesn’t matter if it’s because of ignorance and an inability to see ability. And before people raise their pitchforks and torches, my best horse is an OTTB, but I think he would be worth more than what he is now if he had a fashionable warmblood pedigree behind him.
On the WB side, I’ve been purchasing Holsteiners lately because…well…IMO I think they’re the best and most consistent breed for the jumper ring. I’ve been able to find extremely well bred youngsters (10 months - 2 yo) for extremely reasonable prices, though typically not through the “big barn” breeders where many value their pre-broke horses like most small breeders value their under saddle stock.
I bought a 2yo in the 5 figure range last summer. She’s bred to the nines, stunningly gorgeous to boot, and has an attitude to die for. I’ve put about 60 rides on her, and I took her to a show just to play around in early September. I got a lot of questions and “soft offers” on her (“if you would consider selling her, I have a client with…”) that were several multiples above what I paid.
I got to thinking about it and realized that there’s a “zone” with young horses where you can get top dollar if you get them exposure at that stage where they’re broke and trained enough to show off their potential, but still too green to reveal any problems or quirks. I also have a 6yo who has been a bit of a punk. He was a dream as a 4yo, and competed successfully through the 1.15m jumpers through the time he turned 5. I had a lot of questions from BNTs about him as well. Then he hit his “teenage punk” phase, and the questions subsided :lol: No doubt in my mind that he will make a top jumper, and that his smart-ass side will be heavily advantageous. Also that the interest will return as his punkiness fades. But it’s an interesting contrast to see in my own horses. I had a trainer suggest that her client would pay just south of the 6-figure range for him as a 4yo. I doubt I’ll see interest like that again until he’s 7 or 8 and back in the young jumper ring.
I think that if you have a reputation on the circuit (or are interested enough to develop one for your young horses), you can develop a program where you bring on horses in the 1-2 yo range and sell them for 5-10x what you bought them for as 3yo without a tremendous amount of risk (other than the inherent risk any equine brings of imminent self-destruction). It may go without saying, but I would heavily weight attitude and aptitude for learning among the traits you’re looking for. Most of the interest I’ve had in my horses has been from trainers with amateurs looking for a nice young horse that the trainer can take through the levels and that they can also ride.
I think you said you have back issues. I wouldn’t go the flipping route then. If I had to quit riding but wanted to stay in it (as you say), after seeing what my breeder friends and trainer friends go through trying to sell for a decent price, I would invest in a performance proven stallion.
At least then you only have one to worry about when the economy sucks. Just my 2 cents. Of course…don’t forget that you have to market the heck out of him.
Are you looking at the hunter or jumper market? The markets seem very, very different and I breed both. The jumper market - IMO- is slightly more educated.
The well bred youngsters sell in utero, as weanlings, or are keepers for the breeders themselves. It is much harder to find a jumper prospect in-expensively at 2-4.
The hunters on the other hand, is a much different market. I think you can get very nice stock at 2-4 as many of the weanlings are sold based on the latest trend in stallion and chrome. Many very, very high quality youngsters are overlooked as weanlings by buyers who are looking for a certain color, markings, cuteness factor, big named hunter stallion and much higher quality hunter prospects are overlooked. And by 2-4 you can see much more movement and style of jump through the chute.
Are you small enough to do the ponies? Geeze Louise, I’ve seen some NICE unbroke larges that with some miles under their belt would be worth a substantial amount. Plus they come in such fun colors, who doesn’t like that kind eye candy in their pasture?
The most successful monetary flip I’ve seen was on a 2 year old mare, but they kept her and trained her to about 3rd level (schooling higher) and sold for over 6 figures (while selling her embryo foals for quite a bit each year). That worked because of the trainers contacts though.
I, personally, have done terrible with OTTBs on resale. YMMV. For fun project horses I did well with QH type, ultra-quiet, pretty geldings in the 15’3" to 16’ hand range who just needed a fall/winter of English flat work, schooling show exposure, trail rides, and they sold in the spring to middle age ammies who wanted a horse who could do a little of everything for a decent little profit (good if you look at what I paid for them). Nothing I would do for a living though.
For higher end, I think pnwJumper has a plan and the best diamonds in the rough are usually small breeders who don’t have a great network set up where someone is already snatching up their youngsters.
With high end it will still be who-you-know, imho.
pnwjumper, I totally agree. I have now narrowed my focus down to 2 year olds (soon to be 3) of impeccable jumper bloodlines (yes, jumper people are far more knowledgable about bloodlines) who have videos of them moving and jumping. In the last 2 days, I have spent hours looking on the Interent and have realized that a good sale video has to have certain things.
Since these are not horses for me to ride (and are not even broke to ride), I do not feel I need to go see them in person. But I do need to know that they have been bred to jump and that they have an affinity for it.
The last 2 young horses I bought sight unseen both had free jumping videos. The weanling jumped through a tiny gymnastic of a pole on the ground --> a 16" oxer. He hunted down to the jumps, rocked back and snapped his knees to his eyeballs and jumped 2’ over the jump. I joked that I had the check written before he landed.
The second one I bought from Silver Creek Sporthorses. They free jump all their 2 year olds and it was a great learning experience for me, watching each lovely horse demonstrate its skills. The one I bought lope’d down to a 4’ oxer and jumped it without trying. His hind end was as good as his front end. A year later (last month, as a 3 year old) I free jumped him over a 5’ oxer (after spending a month getting him 100% comfortable with the chute and with lower jumps, and he only jumped the big one 2x before we stopped – it has not hurt him in the least). Based on those pictures and video, I have 2 GP riders/trainers who are interested to see what he looks like after being in training for 6 months, and will await my call.
These are the pictures they saw that excited them:
http://i394.photobucket.com/albums/pp25/PeteyPuppy/Snapshot19-20-20132-33PM2_zpse690a5d7.jpg
http://i394.photobucket.com/albums/pp25/PeteyPuppy/Snapshot59-20-20132-42PM2_zpsf3ef7ba3.jpg
http://i394.photobucket.com/albums/pp25/PeteyPuppy/freejumplandinged_zps95ad0a78.jpg
So, for all you who want to sell your young stock, a free jump video is the way to go. The horse only has to jump as high as it feels comfortable — but if the horse is being sold as a jumper prospect and only jumps 3’, I will not consider it, since I am assuming that it is already making an effort at that height.
Again, it is all in the presentation. You only have 1 chance to make a good first impression. So, posting a video of a horse’s first time through a chute, with crap all over the place and someone with a lunge whip chasing down after it, is worse than posting nothing. I do not want to hear excuses (as in: this was only the horse’s 1st/2nd time jumping). Well, then DO NOT post a video until the horse is able to show off its total innate talent.
If jumping comes easily and the horse uses both ends great, I will be there to write a check. But 90% of horses I have seen on the Internet do not tell me enough to even want to follow up on them.
PS: For those people who are opposed to free jumping a young horse, please be aware (and price the horse accordingly) that the potential buyer only knows what he can see. And a horse trotting stiff legged with his tail over his back around a field, does NOT tell many buyers enough to want to follow through. You may know/think that your horse is a jumper/hunter prospect – so show the world that it has the talent to be one.
AHF just sold a lovely two year old filly and I have one for sale, both for the hunters. That said, I agree with Molly Malone as well about buying late two year olds and selling when under saddle at 3 1/2 or so. I just sold one to Bill Schaub and would have made a nice profit had I started him myself. I did find the buyer myself, but still had to pay the very good trainer 15% commission which I didn’t like much. The colt was WTC, over small show fences of 2’9" and amazingly had his flying changes nailed. I sold a yearling for the same price I’d asked for him as a weanling and someone got a pretty good deal as he was lovely, as is my two year old Hanoverian filly. I know other MAHB Hanoverian breeders with two year old fillies for sale right now. And we always share “horse wanted” information.
I also strongly agree about mortality and M/M insurance all these developing prospects. I didn’t have to learn that the hard way, thankfully, and have had to take full advantage of it a few times over the years.
Diane Halpin/Laurel Leaf Hanoverians: Facebook
You inspire me, Lord Helpus! I hope your venture is very successful.
I look forward to hearing about (another) one of your babies hitting the big time.
[QUOTE=poltroon;7237600]
You inspire me, Lord Helpus! I hope your venture is very successful.
I look forward to hearing about (another) one of your babies hitting the big time. :-)[/QUOTE]
Poltroon, I hate to be an enabler (actual I LOVE enabling) but in my searches I have come across several very nice young horses in California… Look on Warmbloods for sale and drool.
I always said if I had my own farm I would go to the yearling sales with 10k and buy as many as I could for that amount, probably eight. Throw them out for a couple months and watch them grow. A couple will rise to the top. Those are the ones you break and take to the two year old in training sale. The rest you give away.
[QUOTE=Laurierace;7237816]
I always said if I had my own farm I would go to the yearling sales with 10k and buy as many as I could for that amount, probably eight. Throw them out for a couple months and watch them grow. A couple will rise to the top. Those are the ones you break and take to the two year old in training sale. The rest you give away.[/QUOTE]
I have done that. I ended up with 1) a wobbler, 2) a filly with a fractured ankle and 3) a colt who had a terrible club foot, that was disguised by clever shoeing and lots of bute. You gets what you pays for . And each costs the same amount to keep as an expensive horse.
Just try to give away a horse with a fractured leg, or a wobbler or a horse with a bad club foot who can barely walk if shod normally. Actually, I am such a sucker, I would probably take them. :lol:
I totally agree with PNW about that sweet time when they are still a little insecure and being easy easy, before the punk stage starts around 5/6. I had the same experience with my last baby, very easy to start at 3, won everything his baby green year and had a lot of interest. Then got a lot tougher and subsequently very hard to sell. Finally sold as an 8 year old but still not easy. Could have much more easily sold the horse at 4, early 5 year old than as a 6/7 year old.
It’s too bad you are so far away, there are many warmblood breeders up here in Canada who have pastures of thirty or more two year olds who are very attractive youngsters at very good prices. Finding a diamond in the rough seems to be the key to success in buying young horses.
I totally agree about the video, yikes there are so many bad ones.
You’ve inspired me to get a free jumping video soon of my two year old gelding!
Good thread.
[QUOTE=winter;7238965]
I totally agree with PNW about that sweet time when they are still a little insecure and being easy easy, before the punk stage starts around 5/6. I had the same experience with my last baby, very easy to start at 3, won everything his baby green year and had a lot of interest. Then got a lot tougher and subsequently very hard to sell. Finally sold as an 8 year old but still not easy. Could have much more easily sold the horse at 4, early 5 year old than as a 6/7 year old.
It’s too bad you are so far away, there are many warmblood breeders up here in Canada who have pastures of thirty or more two year olds who are very attractive youngsters at very good prices. Finding a diamond in the rough seems to be the key to success in buying young horses.
I totally agree about the video, yikes there are so many bad ones.
You’ve inspired me to get a free jumping video soon of my two year old gelding!
Good thread.[/QUOTE]
Actually, I was contacted by the breeder of my wonderful horse, Petey; she has a 2 year old which sounds very nice (by Cassini II) and she is going to get a video made. She lives in the Edmonton, Alberta area – which is where Petey came from (9.5 years ago). At 9 months old, he took a 5 day, 3000 mile van ride all the way to me in Ky.
So I am not adverse to looking for good horses wherever I can find them. People should not discount horses which are a long way away, if they are looking for quality at a reasonable price (of course the transportation can nullify any price reduction). But I agree that it is easier to find a diamond in the rough in Canada.
