[QUOTE=theblondejumper;8963253]
Wow, AND you have a full-time job!! Nicely done, PNW![/QUOTE]
I HAD a full time job. I left Corporate America in October so I could do the horses full time. Hoping it was a good decision! :lol:
[QUOTE=frankiec;8963195]
Or come to the UK, pay £200 for a cob or as you guys call them a “gypsy” import it and sell it for a huge profit. You literally cant move in the UK for hairy cobs at the minute and they sell for pennies. The ones that seem to sell for big bucks in the US are the really hairy ones regardless of conformation/temperament. Chuck me £500 and I will find you the hairiest beast in existence, and because I’m nice I’ll also find you one with reasonable conformation and a good temperament :)[/QUOTE]
The bottom kind of fell out on that one…
[QUOTE=snaffle1987;8963130]
if you think that paying 35K euro minimum to find anything of note; people need to get their head out of the clouds.[/QUOTE]
Agree completely. I know someone who bought a four year old for $2500 from the breeder that I salivated over. I did not have the extra money to board it or I would have made an offer, because I knew I could relocate it to my friends and price it at $75k within 6 months.
Lots of horses sell in the millions at the young horse sales but you know who won the Olympics and broke three world records? Valegro purchased for 4000 GBP. Everything in their barn was bought for 20k or less pretty much.
I think most if the people poo poo ing OPs idea are people who don’t actually flip any horses.
I have bought an ottb out of a backyard for $3700 and sold it for $30k within 6 months. My last horse that I got 1/2 of for free from a friend in exchange for paying the bills and doing the training sold for enough that my half bought me a rental property. Yes there have been others where I just broke even or lost a little money, but they were still fun to ride.
This is a very expensive sport. If you flip a horse and lose a little money, you have spent a deeply discounted rate to ride a nice horse for a while. If you just buy a horse and never intend to flip it, you will lose 100% of all of your money every time. Even a flipped horse that loses a little means you can participate in the sport at a deep discount - if you buy one late in the year for $15k, spend $50k on showing it in the pregreens at WEF for a winter, and then sell it for $50k flat, you have just gone to WEF for a season for $15k. Even losing money you have an experience and ride a quality of horse that would have been exponentially more expensive otherwise. Even losing a little you subsidize your own participation in the sport, which would be a much larger flood of money straight down the toilet otherwise. But a lot of people sit on the internet saying they are priced out if the sport and then tell anyone who will listen not to even try because they “might lose money.” HELLLOOO!!! This is show horses. You are GURANTEED to lose 100% of your money if you never try to flip anything, and conversely if you can show horses all year at the nice shows and break even you are doing much better than the person who just has their personal horse that they pay for and has a giant horse expense line on the balance sheet at the end of each year.
The NUMBER ONE factor in whether a horse succeeded for me was what trainer was helping me pick it and/or get it sold. The A+ NUMBER ONE MOST IMPORTANT factor. The nice $75k possibility I salivated over? That kid was not using any trainer with an established sales program so it eventually went for a fraction. Well connected trainers in a better zip code could have done soooooo much better.
Actually, scratch that, the real number one factor in success is whether you are willing to try at all, which dorsn’t seem to describe a lot of people on here, not that it stops them from pissing all over the OPs willingness to. But if course, if you can’t make it work yourself or don’t want to try, it is important to dissuade anyone else who may actually succeed. I can tell you though when a horse you enjoy riding pays for itself, or even makes money on top, it’s really nice. Worth a shot!
I am not so sure people are telling the OP not to do it. They are telling cautionary tales regarding making a profit which the OP asked about. Had the OP asked about subsidizing her horse ownership through flipping, I think the answers would be a lot different.
I have bought more than one young green horse. I enjoyed the process of getting it started and doing some showing. For the ones I did sell (a few ending up being keepers I just could not bear to part with - the privilege of being an amateur 
) I can not say I have always made a profit but I have been able to sell for more than the purchase price which I then used to buy an even nicer horse. I would venture to guess there are quite a number of people who have done this but many do not have profit in mind as the end goal.
I think the OP should stop calling it an “investment” and go to Europe and buy a fun horse that she can hopefully sell for more than she paid for it. That would subsidize her riding and be a lot of fun. Unless she’s going to quit her day job like PNWJumper, it really only needs to pay for itself.
The flaw in the plan is calling it an “investment horse” (which did make me snort in amusement).
In addition to the excellent thinking above, you need to look at how you will market the horse to get the best price possible.
In other words, why would I and my trainer come to you and your trainer for a 75k 3’ horse? No offense, don’t take this personally, but are you coming out with Tri Colors or pastels? Are you showing against average competition or top horses/riders? Does your trainer have an active buy/sell business in upper 5 figure price ranges? Can s/he line up potential buyers just off their reputation and get calls from other trainers looking for clients? The best trainer/dealers work word of mouth.
Getting it sold is often neglected in planning. Somebody like PNW has established at least a local reputation for offering suitable type, talent, brain and quality and I bet they call her if they have a client looking and are wanting to try the latest when she hauls it to the shows. Her breeders over there know what she needs so she doesn’t go over on a treasure hunt hoping to get lucky.
So, if you intend to not really treat it as an true investment horse and get it sold in 6 months to a year absolute max? You need to ask whether your trainer and you are going to add value showing it for two years proving it’s a winner or end up with an average horse in average company, or worse?
Like I said, nothing personal. Just a fact of marketing the finished product. My late trainer had a very active buy/sell business, she got called and went over with a list of wants for other trainers and had a great eye. They were provisionally sold before they got on the plane mostly to other trainers who then flipped them to clients…they all made money. Least enough to cover the duds and there is a certain percentage of flops no matter who or what.
That said, if you want to import with the idea of eventual sale? That’s fine, enjoyable if you have the money. But that’s not creating a real ROI…and if you want to hang on until you are ready to sell? Maybe turn down offers? Beware continuing to keep it might reduce its value instead of increase it.
I don’t buy and sell horses, but want to name my horse “Depreciating Asset” and ride into the ring with the announcer calling…Here comes Adriane, riding her Depreciating Asset 
[QUOTE=meupatdoes;8963756]
Agree completely. I know someone who bought a four year old for $2500 from the breeder that I salivated over. I did not have the extra money to board it or I would have made an offer, because I knew I could relocate it to my friends and price it at $75k within 6 months.
Lots of horses sell in the millions at the young horse sales but you know who won the Olympics and broke three world records? Valegro purchased for 4000 GBP. Everything in their barn was bought for 20k or less pretty much.
I think most if the people poo poo ing OPs idea are people who don’t actually flip any horses.
I have bought an ottb out of a backyard for $3700 and sold it for $30k within 6 months. My last horse that I got 1/2 of for free from a friend in exchange for paying the bills and doing the training sold for enough that my half bought me a rental property. Yes there have been others where I just broke even or lost a little money, but they were still fun to ride.
This is a very expensive sport. If you flip a horse and lose a little money, you have spent a deeply discounted rate to ride a nice horse for a while. If you just buy a horse and never intend to flip it, you will lose 100% of all of your money every time. Even a flipped horse that loses a little means you can participate in the sport at a deep discount - if you buy one late in the year for $15k, spend $50k on showing it in the pregreens at WEF for a winter, and then sell it for $50k flat, you have just gone to WEF for a season for $15k. Even losing money you have an experience and ride a quality of horse that would have been exponentially more expensive otherwise. Even losing a little you subsidize your own participation in the sport, which would be a much larger flood of money straight down the toilet otherwise. But a lot of people sit on the internet saying they are priced out if the sport and then tell anyone who will listen not to even try because they “might lose money.” HELLLOOO!!! This is show horses. You are GURANTEED to lose 100% of your money if you never try to flip anything, and conversely if you can show horses all year at the nice shows and break even you are doing much better than the person who just has their personal horse that they pay for and has a giant horse expense line on the balance sheet at the end of each year.
The NUMBER ONE factor in whether a horse succeeded for me was what trainer was helping me pick it and/or get it sold. The A+ NUMBER ONE MOST IMPORTANT factor. The nice $75k possibility I salivated over? That kid was not using any trainer with an established sales program so it eventually went for a fraction. Well connected trainers in a better zip code could have done soooooo much better.
Actually, scratch that, the real number one factor in success is whether you are willing to try at all, which dorsn’t seem to describe a lot of people on here, not that it stops them from pissing all over the OPs willingness to. But if course, if you can’t make it work yourself or don’t want to try, it is important to dissuade anyone else who may actually succeed. I can tell you though when a horse you enjoy riding pays for itself, or even makes money on top, it’s really nice. Worth a shot![/QUOTE]
This is a really interesting perspective, and I believe meupatdoes is probably correct in that most of the responders on this thread are offering cautionary “don’t do it” advice because they themselves would not be in a position to do so.
In the example of the horse whose price/value increases from 15K to 50K after a WEF season, how many people - even if they have some of the right connections and could be guaranteed a reasonable chance at the same outcome - have the resources (50K) to do WEF for a season and play in that world? The population of COTH forum posters undoubtedly includes some who have those resources but probably more who do not. As far as whether OP has those resources, we don’t know…
[QUOTE=Bogie;8963870]
I think the OP should stop calling it an “investment” and go to Europe and buy a fun horse that she can hopefully sell for more than she paid for it. That would subsidize her riding and be a lot of fun. Unless she’s going to quit her day job like PNWJumper, it really only needs to pay for itself.
The flaw in the plan is calling it an “investment horse” (which did make me snort in amusement).[/QUOTE]
Agree. PNW spent years getting to this point. She became a successful and respected rider with contacts here and abroad.
[QUOTE=meupatdoes;8963756]Agree completely. I know someone who bought a four year old for $2500 from the breeder that I salivated over. I did not have the extra money to board it or I would have made an offer, because I knew I could relocate it to my friends and price it at $75k within 6 months.
Lots of horses sell in the millions at the young horse sales but you know who won the Olympics and broke three world records? Valegro purchased for 4000 GBP. Everything in their barn was bought for 20k or less pretty much.
I think most if the people poo poo ing OPs idea are people who don’t actually flip any horses.
I have bought an ottb out of a backyard for $3700 and sold it for $30k within 6 months. My last horse that I got 1/2 of for free from a friend in exchange for paying the bills and doing the training sold for enough that my half bought me a rental property. Yes there have been others where I just broke even or lost a little money, but they were still fun to ride.
This is a very expensive sport. If you flip a horse and lose a little money, you have spent a deeply discounted rate to ride a nice horse for a while. If you just buy a horse and never intend to flip it, you will lose 100% of all of your money every time. Even a flipped horse that loses a little means you can participate in the sport at a deep discount - if you buy one late in the year for $15k, spend $50k on showing it in the pregreens at WEF for a winter, and then sell it for $50k flat, you have just gone to WEF for a season for $15k. Even losing money you have an experience and ride a quality of horse that would have been exponentially more expensive otherwise. Even losing a little you subsidize your own participation in the sport, which would be a much larger flood of money straight down the toilet otherwise. But a lot of people sit on the internet saying they are priced out if the sport and then tell anyone who will listen not to even try because they “might lose money.” HELLLOOO!!! This is show horses. You are GURANTEED to lose 100% of your money if you never try to flip anything, and conversely if you can show horses all year at the nice shows and break even you are doing much better than the person who just has their personal horse that they pay for and has a giant horse expense line on the balance sheet at the end of each year.
The NUMBER ONE factor in whether a horse succeeded for me was what trainer was helping me pick it and/or get it sold. The A+ NUMBER ONE MOST IMPORTANT factor. The nice $75k possibility I salivated over? That kid was not using any trainer with an established sales program so it eventually went for a fraction. Well connected trainers in a better zip code could have done soooooo much better.
Actually, scratch that, the real number one factor in success is whether you are willing to try at all, which dorsn’t seem to describe a lot of people on here, not that it stops them from pissing all over the OPs willingness to. But if course, if you can’t make it work yourself or don’t want to try, it is important to dissuade anyone else who may actually succeed. I can tell you though when a horse you enjoy riding pays for itself, or even makes money on top, it’s really nice. Worth a shot![/QUOTE]
I’m not saying don’t do it. I’m saying if you have to come here seeking advice you probably aren’t in a position to do this successfully. You don’t have the contacts in place. Go get real professional contacts first.
[QUOTE=Bogie;8963870]
I think the OP should stop calling it an “investment” and go to Europe and buy a fun horse that she can hopefully sell for more than she paid for it. That would subsidize her riding and be a lot of fun. Unless she’s going to quit her day job like PNWJumper, it really only needs to pay for itself.
The flaw in the plan is calling it an “investment horse” (which did make me snort in amusement).[/QUOTE]
I thought this was the OP’s point. Not to have an ‘investment horse’ in order to make money but to shop carefully enough to buy a horse that she will show and have fun with and eventually sell for more than she paid for it. Rather than just buying another show horse, because regardless she is going to have a horse, hence the boarding and showing fees are a given.
[QUOTE=Groom&Taxi;8964277]
This is a really interesting perspective, and I believe meupatdoes is probably correct in that most of the responders on this thread are offering cautionary “don’t do it” advice because they themselves would not be in a position to do so.[/QUOTE]
I actually drew a different conclusion, I think the OP got a lot of cautionary tales for two reasons, none of which have anything to do with the circumstances of the responders – (1) the OP’s initial premise was “investment” and “profit margins” which we all know is anything but a sure thing where horses are involved and (2) the OP’s posts do not suggest a lot of familiarity with the market and price points, which likely gave people pause as it is something that would be advisable to know a lot about if someone is going to embark upon this path!
Subsidizing your horse habit through sales and having some fun along the way is a different proposition than was posed in the initial post, and that definitely changed the landscape. Whether the OP can be successful at it depends on way more variables in the individual situation than anyone on this thread other than the OP could know, and I read a lot of the responses as people not wanting someone to go into it wearing rose-colored glasses.
[QUOTE=Midge;8964465]
I thought this was the OP’s point. Not to have an ‘investment horse’ in order to make money but to shop carefully enough to buy a horse that she will show and have fun with and eventually sell for more than she paid for it. Rather than just buying another show horse, because regardless she is going to have a horse, hence the boarding and showing fees are a given.[/QUOTE]
Subsidizing one’s riding is very different than having investment horses, and the OP asked about the latter.
She may have just used the wrong terminology, or not quite understood the difference.
But if she’d asked about importing, riding for a few years, and hopefully selling for more to roll into a nicer horse instead of asking about how investment horses work, I imagine a lot of us would have had a much different answer.
As well, she wanted a black and white answer about price points, which no one can give, which indicates a lack of knowledge about the horse world in general, which is not a winning combination when asking about investing in horses.
Well “Meup” has had some excellent results, but I have quietly watched from the sidelines, the large number of people who do not have those results. Usually the “contacts” do quite well.
Years ago, there were those who made a great living buying likely OTTB’s, before the organized off the track sellers came along, they made some good choices and quickly bit the bullet on bad ones, and made their $$$$ on volume.
[QUOTE=Mac123;8964487]
Subsidizing one’s riding is very different than having investment horses, and the OP asked about the latter.
She may have just used the wrong terminology, or not quite understood the difference.
But if she’d asked about importing, riding for a few years, and hopefully selling for more to roll into a nicer horse instead of asking about how investment horses work, I imagine a lot of us would have had a much different answer.
As well, she wanted a black and white answer about price points, which no one can give, which indicates a lack of knowledge about the horse world in general, which is not a winning combination when asking about investing in horses.[/QUOTE]
Yes, but she defined her ‘investment’ as
I am defining profit as (sell price - sell commission - import costs - - purchase commission - purchase price)
She also mentioned
Specifically I am looking to import one horse at a time, so training and board is not an issue as I do this already.
All of which sounds more like subsidizing her future purchases, rather than a true investment.
[QUOTE=Midge;8964509]
Yes, but she defined her ‘investment’ as
She also mentioned
All of which sounds more like subsidizing her future purchases, rather than a true investment.[/QUOTE]
Midge, true, but I think it was only with the benefit of some of the OP’s subsequent clarifying posts that it became clear that the omissions from her equation were not due to oversight or wishful thinking, but rather were because it was actually intended to be the subsidy scenario not the investment/profit margin scenario.
go to the local kill sale and scrape something up. Its amazing what you can find there/what ends up there and turn it around. You’d be best to turn a profit off of something with potential found there then shopping over in Europe and paying thousands to import.
[QUOTE=meupatdoes;8963756]
Agree completely. I know someone who bought a four year old for $2500 from the breeder that I salivated over. I did not have the extra money to board it or I would have made an offer, because I knew I could relocate it to my friends and price it at $75k within 6 months.
Lots of horses sell in the millions at the young horse sales but you know who won the Olympics and broke three world records? Valegro purchased for 4000 GBP. Everything in their barn was bought for 20k or less pretty much.
I think most if the people poo poo ing OPs idea are people who don’t actually flip any horses.
I have bought an ottb out of a backyard for $3700 and sold it for $30k within 6 months. My last horse that I got 1/2 of for free from a friend in exchange for paying the bills and doing the training sold for enough that my half bought me a rental property. Yes there have been others where I just broke even or lost a little money, but they were still fun to ride.
This is a very expensive sport. If you flip a horse and lose a little money, you have spent a deeply discounted rate to ride a nice horse for a while. If you just buy a horse and never intend to flip it, you will lose 100% of all of your money every time. Even a flipped horse that loses a little means you can participate in the sport at a deep discount - if you buy one late in the year for $15k, spend $50k on showing it in the pregreens at WEF for a winter, and then sell it for $50k flat, you have just gone to WEF for a season for $15k. Even losing money you have an experience and ride a quality of horse that would have been exponentially more expensive otherwise. Even losing a little you subsidize your own participation in the sport, which would be a much larger flood of money straight down the toilet otherwise. But a lot of people sit on the internet saying they are priced out if the sport and then tell anyone who will listen not to even try because they “might lose money.” HELLLOOO!!! This is show horses. You are GURANTEED to lose 100% of your money if you never try to flip anything, and conversely if you can show horses all year at the nice shows and break even you are doing much better than the person who just has their personal horse that they pay for and has a giant horse expense line on the balance sheet at the end of each year.
The NUMBER ONE factor in whether a horse succeeded for me was what trainer was helping me pick it and/or get it sold. The A+ NUMBER ONE MOST IMPORTANT factor. The nice $75k possibility I salivated over? That kid was not using any trainer with an established sales program so it eventually went for a fraction. Well connected trainers in a better zip code could have done soooooo much better.
Actually, scratch that, the real number one factor in success is whether you are willing to try at all, which dorsn’t seem to describe a lot of people on here, not that it stops them from pissing all over the OPs willingness to. But if course, if you can’t make it work yourself or don’t want to try, it is important to dissuade anyone else who may actually succeed. I can tell you though when a horse you enjoy riding pays for itself, or even makes money on top, it’s really nice. Worth a shot![/QUOTE]
Well, my first question for OP was whether she is currently riding, schooling, and showing at the level where $60,000 horses are the norm, and if she’s brought along a prospect before. Not telling her not to get a nice horse and hope to train it up and increase it’s value, but rather that “making back your investment” is not a sure thing. I wouldn’t tell anyone not to buy a young prospect as a project and experiment, but I think someone who is asking on here for some figures to plug into a horse investment spreadsheet might not have the depth of industry experience to have the success the meupatdoes and PNW have had.
It’s not just buying the right horse, it’s training it right, competing it right, and then marketing it right when you re-sell.
I hang out at the low end of nice horses, so I get to meet many rather nice, or even very nice, well bred horses, that end up worth little or nothing. That includes $20,000 youngsters that break down in training, and $60,000 “finished” jumpers that are rehomed for $1 after they prove “too much horse” for someone’s teen daughter. Also the homebred warmbloods that sit unbroken on someone’s pasture until they are nine, and then get given away. I don’t know much about how you get someone to pay $60,000 for a horse :), but I know a bit about how many “good prospects” fall out of the running along the way.
This was really helpful. I didn’t realize the word “investment” would be taking as seriously as it did, so I will take that back and state that really I just want to try this one horse at a time idea, have some fun with it, and see if I can sell it for more than it is worth. It really is a way to subsidize this incredibly expensive sport.
Thank you all for your very honest input, it is valuable and much appreciated!
This was pretty much my thinking. I spend all of this money anyway, and I also have been leasing, so I pay a premium. I thought, why don’t I try to buy something and see if works out. I think the term “investment” seemed to trigger the wrong idea, so I’ll eliminate that from my vocab
I really trust my trainer who has done this before. She has mentioned the duds as well, and that happens. She also has connections for good imports, so we shall see where this takes us!
Honestly, just read PNW’s post and go from there - I think that is all the advice you need!
The only thing I would add is as a rider currently leasing, you are paying a premium because you don’t have to deal with the long term repercussions of a career ending or limiting injury.
If you want to do this as a way to maybe make some money while you do what you enjoy, with the right contacts, ability and a fair share of luck, that could happen. But what you need to plan for is all those other too common scenarios an injury that is career ending or even one that just greatly reduces the value. If you end up with (like I recently did) an otherwise healthy young horse who is simply not going to be ridden again, then what is your plan? Is it in the budget to take care of that one and start again? Are you willing to take care of that one for the rest of its life even if it means you don’t get to show or own another horse any time soon? Or are you willing to euthanize that horse in order to rebuild and start again?
Because those are probably the three most important questions you need to ask yourself before you commit to sale horse ownership. None of them are necessarily the wrong answer, but they are all seriously unfun answers and if you do this long enough, we all face this question…
In my case, I just shrugged and accepted the fact that the 9 year old on the early retirement plan will probably live to 40. I can afford it and quite frankly I am pretty lucky in 40 years of horse ownership this is the first early retiree I have owned so I am ahead of the curve.
