Is my TB Mare worth breeding?

[JSP21]

Hello to all. Great site. I know this is my first post, and I’m a newbie here. I was just looking for some insightful information on whether or not my Mare is worth breeding to produce a foal for Racing. I understand as well, it depends also on what Stallion I breed her with. Let me give you a quick run down of her. And I can provide pictures as well, as I’m sure you will want to see them.

Name: Miss Pacific (age: 10) http://www.pedigreequery.com/miss+pacific
From Malibu Moon and Glitz n’ Glamour

• She raced (3) times and didn’t W-P-S in those. She hurt her back right leg if I’m not mistaken during her last race.

• Her father “Malibu Moon” is obviously one of the top if not the top leading sire right now.

• Her mom “Glitz N’ Glamour” had 42 Starts, 5 Wins, 3 Places, 5 Shows Career Earnings: $46,635

• She has foaled once before, and was bred with a PAINT. ?

Take it easy on me here! I thank you all for taking the time to give me advice. Thanks so much!

[Laurierace]

What would your goal be for the resulting foal?

[JSP21]

[QUOTE=Laurierace;7616325]
What would your goal be for the resulting foal?[/QUOTE]

To take the necessary route in order to become a successful racehorse.

[maybedog]

OP said they want to produce a foal for racing.

Breeding is not for the faint of heart!! I have to wonder why she was Apr-12 For sale on Craigslist?? She is fairly well bred but so are many of them. It’s a crap shoot. If you have the money to send her to a top of the line stallion go for it.

[Laurierace]

I know she wants to produce a race horse, we all do, I wanted to know if she was hoping to sell it at the sales or keep it for themselves to race.

I would not advise breeding any mare for a race horse as an introduction into racing. Claiming a horse already running is a much better way to get your feet wet. As for this particular mare, her dam side hasn’t produced anything in generations. The chances of her bucking that trend are not very good.

[caffeinated]

[QUOTE=JSP21;7616328]
To take the necessary route in order to become a successful racehorse.[/QUOTE]

Have you owned racehorses before? Trying to breed one is definitely not the way I would suggest getting into it, if you haven’t been involved in racing at all up till this point.

[JSP21]

I’ve never had experience owning a race horse before and racing him/her. However, I just wanted to check in and see if my newly acquired mare was worth breeding, due to what I think as a newbie is a impressive pedigree. Malibu Moon, AP Indy, etc. Money isn’t an issue, however, I lack the knowledge. But that’s not to say I couldn’t team up with folks who know the ins and outs of it.

I know this might sound like a silly question, but I’ve wondered this lately. Say Malibu Moon’s stud fee is $50,000. Someone paid that amount plus more, to have her foaled back in 2003-04? And she just didn’t race well, so I’m assuming they gave her away…

[Texarkana]

[QUOTE=JSP21;7616415]

I know this might sound like a silly question, but I’ve wondered this lately. Say Malibu Moon’s stud fee is $50,000. Someone paid that amount plus more, to have her foaled back in 2003-04? And she just didn’t race well, so I’m assuming they gave her away…[/QUOTE]

Malibu Moon’s fee in 2003 was $3,000. And honestly, it’s doubtful they even paid that full amount, as the farm was very negotiable with his fee in the early days.

Malibu Moon is an anomaly in the sense that he was a well-bred regional sire whose offspring out performed expectations. His fee skyrocketed as a result and he upgraded himself to new digs in KY.

[LaurieB]

[QUOTE=JSP21;7616415]
I’ve never had experience owning a race horse before and racing him/her. However, I just wanted to check in and see if my newly acquired mare was worth breeding, due to what I think as a newbie is a impressive pedigree. Malibu Moon, AP Indy, etc. Money isn’t an issue, however, I lack the knowledge. But that’s not to say I couldn’t team up with folks who know the ins and outs of it.

I know this might sound like a silly question, but I’ve wondered this lately. Say Malibu Moon’s stud fee is $50,000. Someone paid that amount plus more, to have her foaled back in 2003-04? And she just didn’t race well, so I’m assuming they gave her away…[/QUOTE]

Malibu Moon’s current stud fee is 95K, but back in 2003 when your mare dam was bred to him, he was standing in MD for a stud fee of 3K. It was a wild time in the TB industry and many mares were being bred that didn’t necessarily deserve to be bred. On top of that, Glitz n Glamour’s owners only deemed her to be worth a 3K stud fee.

In the intervening years, Malibu Moon’s stud fee has risen dramatically–based on the race performance of his offspring. Unfortunately, however, your mare wasn’t one of those that inherited his talent.

FWIW, Miss Pacific’s dam sold in 2006, carrying a full sibling to your mare, for 6K. Despite the fact that your mare has a now-famous sire, I would agree with others who have said that there are easier and more cost effective ways to make a beginning in horse racing.

[mht]

From someone who has ‘been there, done that’, go claim yourself a decent runner.

[JSP21]

[QUOTE=LaurieB;7616466]
Malibu Moon’s current stud fee is 95K, but back in 2003 when your mare dam was bred to him, he was standing in MD for a stud fee of 3K. It was a wild time in the TB industry and many mares were being bred that didn’t necessarily deserve to be bred. On top of that, Glitz n Glamour’s owners only deemed her to be worth a 3K stud fee.

In the intervening years, Malibu Moon’s stud fee has risen dramatically–based on the race performance of his offspring. Unfortunately, however, your mare wasn’t one of those that inherited his talent.

FWIW, Miss Pacific’s dam sold in 2006, carrying a full sibling to your mare, for 6K. Despite the fact that your mare has a now-famous sire, I would agree with others who have said that there are easier and more cost effective ways to make a beginning in horse racing.[/QUOTE]

thanks so much for this information. If you don’t mind me asking, how did you find all of this? Haha.

[JSP21]

[QUOTE=mht;7616485]
From someone who has ‘been there, done that’, go claim yourself a decent runner.[/QUOTE]

Thank you! I’m beginning to lean this way. Would love to do this one day. Any good books or articles to learn about picking a good horse to claim, and process of doing all of this? Should I start out at a smaller track to get my feet wet? I live close to Lonestar Park.

[LaurieB]

[QUOTE=JSP21;7616563]
thanks so much for this information. If you don’t mind me asking, how did you find all of this? Haha.[/QUOTE]

Well I was breedings TBs in 2003 so I remember Malibu Moon starting in MD. I pulled out my old stallion register from that year to double-check his stud fee.

As for the wild TB market…lived through it.

The sales figure for Miss Pacific’s dam came from here: http://www.bloodhorse.com/auctions-tool/ (I did a “Horse Search” by her dam’s name and then also checked the mare’s sales records as a dam.)

[Peaches]

Just a quick correction on the auction record. She was sold in February 2004 for $6,000, so she was carrying your mare.

[anon123456]

According to Equibase, your mare has a 2010 filly by Norfield that is an unraced Oklahoma bred.

Your mare is the only foal showing for her dam in Equibase and I believe they have started listed all JC Registered foals whether raced or not.

Not the type of family that I would suggest breeding for racing but then again Hansen did outrun his pedigree and noone told Dr. Hansen not to breed the mare (but if he had read COTH we all would have said find another mare!) Hansen has no blacktype for 4 dams except for himself and that didnt stop him.

[DaniW]

Have you owned horses before? Any horse?

[Mara]

OP, if you DID go ahead and breed your mare (and along with others here I urge you not to), at best you’d probably get a horse whose only shot at being competitive would be somewhere in the low-mid claiming ranks. That is, if the foal stayed healthy and sound long enough to get to the races.

Would you be comfortable with the idea of a horse YOU bred and raised and watched grow up, from a mare you picked out, possibly getting claimed away from you? That’s much more likely to happen than getting even a low-level allowance winner. Reality isn’t generally very romantic for most people at the track.

Would you be in a position to claim/buy the horse back if you were too attached to let it go, and would you be prepared to take him or her back in any condition?

Things to consider, even for people who do have a breeding-quality mare.

[PeteyPie]

Here are some links. I warn you, you will get hooked! However, before you get too excited about breeding, look into some Thoroughbred re-homing websites and rescues, such as Canter, New Vocations, Bluebonnet… there are many and if you research them and educate yourself you will realize that if you care about your horses you will not enter into breeding lightly. Although Thoroughbreds only make up about ten percent of horses sent to slaughter, the numbers are still significant. If you breed without thinking or caring about the future of the foal, about its value as a racehorse and your commitment to its training and value as a pleasure horse after its career, you may be adding to some sadness and cruelty.

www.equibase.com

www.equineline.com

www.bloodhorse.com

http://www.thoroughbreddailynews.com (data from equineline)

State websites for the Thoroughbred Breeders, such as this, the California Thoroughbred Breeders Association: http://ctba.com

Auction sites such Keeneland, Fasig-Tipton, or this from Barretts: http://www.barretts.com/sales/

The Jockey Club website: http://www.jockeyclub.com

The Daily Racing Form: www.drf.com

Spendthift Farm’s site where Malibu Moon stands: http://www.spendthriftfarm.com/horses/malibu-moon-515.html

Various other links: http://ctba.com/links/

www.equibase.com is an accurate site with info on racing histories and stats. If you enter your horse’s name and then scroll down, you will see a “free pedigree” or something similar. If you click on that, it will open a new window on www.equineline.com.

Equineline is an accurate site which has a button for auction history, nicking info and other free stuff.

I like www.pedigreequery.com. I like the format and usability of the site, but beware because the info is submitted by users and can be incomplete or inaccurate. Pedigreequery sometimes has photos and additional info not available on the other sites. For example, these are the progeny of your mare’s grandam, Noble Jossie, which are not all listed on www.pedigreequery.com. (I added Valid Surprise yesterday but ran out of steam to include the rest.) I found the info on equibase. The racing stats showed that the first three horses were pretty tough and raced for a while. Unfortunately, none of them were very fast and their careers consisted of claiming races:
Horse name starts-wins-places-shows
Blazing Burt 25-4-5-2
Valid Surprise 59-3-4-10
Glitz N Glamour 42-5-3-5
Bubby’s Boy 4-0-0-0
Royal Glee 10-0-0-0

Your mare’s dam line is 8h which is the same as my favorite, Richard’s Kid. There is a lot of toughness in that family, it seems to me, with Glitz N Glamour’s 42 lifetime starts (yes, I know, it’s not groundbreaking, but it’s not 5 races like many), and the 65 starts of Noble Jossie.

[danceronice]

[QUOTE=anon123456;7618205]
According to Equibase, your mare has a 2010 filly by Norfield that is an unraced Oklahoma bred.

Your mare is the only foal showing for her dam in Equibase and I believe they have started listed all JC Registered foals whether raced or not. [/QUOTE]

Equibase? Or Equineline? Equineline and Brisnet have everything, Equibase only shows a horse if they raced. (My horse’s unraced half-sister by Dance the Ballado doesn’t show up in Equibase, but will come up in Brisnet as she was registered but never raced.)

[PeteyPie]

[QUOTE=danceronice;7618928]
Equibase? Or Equineline? Equineline and Brisnet have everything, Equibase only shows a horse if they raced. (My horse’s unraced half-sister by Dance the Ballado doesn’t show up in Equibase, but will come up in Brisnet as she was registered but never raced.)[/QUOTE]

I saw it on equibase too:
http://www.equibase.com/profiles/Results.cfm?type=Horse&refno=8917957&registry=T

Chestnut filly, Pacific Nine (OK), born 2010, unraced, no works.