Thanks so much for all of this amazing information. I truly appreciate it all. I will definitely consider all options. I might just go the route of getting my feet wet by claiming. Imleaning toward this route the most. However the option of giving it a shot because you just never know looks tempting as well. And Id also look into claiming as well. Ive definitely got a lot of thinking, studying, etc. to do.
Again thank you all for this valuable information.
[QUOTE=JSP21;7619344]
Thanks so much for all of this amazing information. I truly appreciate it all. I will definitely consider all options. I might just go the route of getting my feet wet by claiming. Imleaning toward this route the most. However the option of giving it a shot because you just never know looks tempting as well. And Id also look into claiming as well. Ive definitely got a lot of thinking, studying, etc. to do.
Again thank you all for this valuable information.[/QUOTE]
I’m going to be the wet blanket:
I would not consider claiming the best way to get introduced to racing for someone who already has experience owning competitive horses in another discipline.
Claiming is excellent for people who know little to nothing about performance horses. They want something now and they want to run. Now. Now.
Successful claiming trainers are a specialized breed. There are plenty of “top” trainers of high-end horses who haven’t dropped a claim in years. There are far too many extremely successful trainers winning back quickly and routinely off the claim who suddenly go very cold when their barns are monitored. There are excellent trainers who do claim but have terribly low rates of return – horses do not run back to their old form, let alone return any of the initial investment.
This is the tip of the iceberg, IMO, about claiming as a starting point. There are some lovely horses who occasionally drop-in for a high price tag. But if you’re shopping in the lower end, you may well bring home something with training/physical issues that will trouble the experienced rider of performance horses in other disciplines. Your racetrack trainer will address these issues – or not – in a way that your dressage/hunter/reining trainer would NOT endorse.
I could go on forever about reasons why I think this is not a good option for you unless you’ve got >$50,000 to drop at Keeneland or Saratoga.
Don’t breed. Just don’t.
My recommendation, worth every penny you’re paying for it:
Buy a little piece of something that hasn’t run yet or hasn’t broken it’s maiden yet. Maiden races are the easiest to win, so you’re most likely to get your picture taken with one.
If you’re used to developing other types of horses, the turn around on even a yearling racehorse can be unbelievably fast. Waiting a few months to break a baby or watch a young horse go through its works and get its gate card will be nothing. Obviously there’s a chance they never get to the races, but that can be lessened to some degree by being very careful in choosing the trainer who starts your horse.
Go to the racetrack you see yourself running at. And I don’t mean one day or just on the weekends. Go several days. When you see a horse in the paddock who looks beautiful and well-managed to your eye, circle that trainer’s name in the program. And, while you’re at it, learn to read the program – at least the basics. You want to see horses that are in the “right” races that fit the conditions. Good horseman who can’t read the condition book or often take wild shots in ridiculous races are unfair to their horses and their owners. You want to see horses that are relatively reasonable to be saddled and ponied and loaded in the gate.
When you have some names, look them up on Equibase. You want to see trainers who win at least around 10% of their starts in the last few years – or at least 10 - 12% of the starts at the track you’re interested in running at.
When you have one or two names, call the racing office and ask for contact information. Call the trainers (probably between the hours of 9 a.m. and noon, to be polite) and say you’re interested in owning a racehorse and set up a time to come talk to them, visit the shedrow, watch the horses train in the morning. If it looks interesting, ask about buying into a piece of something.
I would be very reluctant to ask a first-time racehorse owner to front the full cost of a runner in training. Do you have $30,000 in disposable income to spend on a horse that may or may not return anything? Because that’s what I would expect it to cost to own a racehorse in training with someone respectable but not extravagant.
If someone wanted to buy a racehorse outright or in a partnership, but they didn’t want to risk losing it in a claiming race, what other options do they have in the lower ranks?
I’m not planning to get into racing, but was curious how this works.
[QUOTE=SnicklefritzG;7621445]
If someone wanted to buy a racehorse outright or in a partnership, but they didn’t want to risk losing it in a claiming race, but other options do they have in the lower ranks?
I’m not planning to get into racing, but was curious how this works.[/QUOTE]
Options in that instance are limited (as we’re about to experience). If a horse isn’t competitive in maiden/allowance company and you don’t want to run for a tag, the only thing you can do is try an easier track where you will hopefully find a lower quality of horses to run against.
If you’re in a partnership, unless your’e the majority holder (and where most people would get into it, you probably wouldn’t be) you might not have a choice, either. Claiming is part of the game. If that’s where the horse is competitive, that’s where you run them. Most horses aren’t generally claimed unless they’re running well (you look at the Equibase charts for a claiming race and rarely will you see more than one or two horses, generally ones who ran well, claimed out of a race) but if you were desperate to avoid it you could offer to buy out the partnership. Or as LaurieB says, if you’re the only owner, try to get the trainer to move to a less-competitive track or send the horse to a new trainer at one of those tracks.
[QUOTE=SnicklefritzG;7621445]
If someone wanted to buy a racehorse outright or in a partnership, but they didn’t want to risk losing it in a claiming race, what other options do they have in the lower ranks?
I’m not planning to get into racing, but was curious how this works.[/QUOTE]
I’m adding onto the other responses here, and totally understanding that you aren’t planning on getting into racing, but just in case someone else stumbles across this while pondering racehorses:
This is something that I see often with people in racing who believe that they love their horse SO much that they can’t allow it to be claimed. It often goes very badly for the horse, who is forced to run against competition it isn’t cut out for, and ultimately alienates the trainer and jockey who are trying to win races and make their living from doing so.
I would compare consistently running a horse over its head to taking a solid, happy, safe beginner novice type horse and trying to make it competitive at prelim or above: Frustrating for the connections, disheartening for the horse, and potentially dangerous.
You can almost always claim a horse back if you want him. You can often buy him back privately. You can take him home and keep him in your backyard if you love him too much to lose him, because the reality is there’s a chance your horse doesn’t come back safely every single time he steps onto the track, morning or afternoon. Obviously all equestrian sports carry risk, so this isn’t intended as a particular knock on the industry. Racing just happens to be at the upper end of risk.
Claiming is a very tough game. You need thick skin and a willingness to gamble, a lot.
I can be a good way to get into the game, but I would either look for a partnership that does claiming as is primary focus or see if I could identify an owner on my circuit who does well with claiming and see if they’d be willing to take me on as a “silent” partner in order to learn the game.
Before placing a claim the purchaser has no access to the horse, cannot vet him or get “hands on” at all. Claiming trainers always want to make others think that their fittest horses are basket cases and their less in form stock is the second coming. If you claim one and he’s ill or injured or just worn out from a heavy schedule, you have no recourse, he’s yours. To do well in racing you must run horses where they belong, class-wise. It is a waste of time to pay thousands in monthly care bills only to run a horse where he has no chance. If he fits with $8k claiming company, that’s where he needs to be.
As for partnerships, there are ups and downs to all of them. The more moderately priced usually deal in lesser quality horses but typically have good horsemen managing them. The biggest thing to watch for are commissions and fees and markups. You can a foot in the door and see how you like the game with partnerships. You can also get involved at a bit higher level than on your own. You get to start out with a trainer who might not have taken your call as a total newbie with one horse, selected by you.
It’s a very diverse game with much to learn. I advise any newbie to try to get as much info as possible and to grow a thick skin. There are many very good racing minds on this BB. We don’t all agree amongst ourselves on many things and sometimes seem snarky to non racing people. That’s often because for some reason racing has become the whipping boy of all “horsey” pursuits. People who assume all OT horses are “rescues” those who berate horsemanship of track folks and others make us very defensive.
OP, thank you for being reasonable about the comments made here.
malibu moon mares
hi, I bought a malibu moon mare off craigslist and she is a winner. she is in foal to james street. her owner had health problems and wanted a quick sale. i know of 1 other mare by him bought off craigslist and she had a nice foal this year. she was not a winner, but owner had tried her as a jumper and she was too hot. again they wanted a quick sale. I have bought some nice horses off craigslist. do the nicking reports and breed her to the best name brand stud u can afford.
[QUOTE=JSP21;7616321]
Hello to all. Great site. I know this is my first post, and I’m a newbie here. I was just looking for some insightful information on whether or not my Mare is worth breeding to produce a foal for Racing. I understand as well, it depends also on what Stallion I breed her with. Let me give you a quick run down of her. And I can provide pictures as well, as I’m sure you will want to see them.
Name: Miss Pacific (age: 10) http://www.pedigreequery.com/miss+pacific
From Malibu Moon and Glitz n’ Glamour
She raced (3) times and didn’t W-P-S in those. She hurt her back right leg if I’m not mistaken during her last race.
Her father “Malibu Moon” is obviously one of the top if not the top leading sire right now.
Her mom “Glitz N’ Glamour” had 42 Starts, 5 Wins, 3 Places, 5 Shows Career Earnings: $46,635
She has foaled once before, and was bred with a PAINT. ?
Take it easy on me here! I thank you all for taking the time to give me advice. Thanks so much![/QUOTE]
Spotsrus1-- I don’t think the point everyone was trying to make was about the fact that the mare might have been bought off Craigslist. It’s about the fact that the mare herself was not a good runner, nor was her dam, 2nd dam, etc. Where or how the horse came into the OP’s possession doesn’t make any difference. You have to look at what the mare’s bloodlines potentially foretell. Obviously her sire has the better potential, but just as obviously did not pass it on.
Malibu Moons stud fee is 95,000 this year. Bred 2 mares at Spendthrift myself (Wilburn, Temple City). I would go to Equineline.com and order a catalog page or do the research yourself. If you are looking to enter a sale like Keeneland there needs to be BLACKTYPE and plenty of it. If your looking to breed for yourself, I would find a stallion that compliments her pedigree.
[QUOTE=Hvfpaints;7710248]
Malibu Moons stud fee is 95,000 this year. Bred 2 mares at Spendthrift myself (Wilburn, Temple City). I would go to Equineline.com and order a catalog page or do the research yourself. If you are looking to enter a sale like Keeneland there needs to be BLACKTYPE and plenty of it. If your looking to breed for yourself, I would find a stallion that compliments her pedigree.[/QUOTE]
Malibu Moon’s stud fee now is immaterial. As was stated earlier in the thread his stud fee was 3K when OP’s mare was conceived. And based on other sales in the family, her dam probably didn’t even merit that.
It may have been immaterial back then but it most certainly is not now. I am not urging breeding but if she did and did due diligence in terms of nicking, this would not be the craziest idea I have heard of. For myself though I take into consideration the mare herself, conformation and temperament, not just the lines.
[QUOTE=Calamber;7711386]
It may have been immaterial back then but it most certainly is not now. I am not urging breeding but if she did and did due diligence in terms of nicking, this would not be the craziest idea I have heard of. For myself though I take into consideration the mare herself, conformation and temperament, not just the lines.[/QUOTE]
Please explain your thinking to me. Because I don’t see how the cost of breeding to the mare’s sire (now) has any impact on her viability as a broodmare prospect. The mare herself was not a successful runner ($147 earned in 3 starts), her dam was competitive at the 5K claiming level, her second dam also ran in the claiming ranks. The fact that she’s by a currently popular sire–who has yet to prove himself as a broodmare sire, by the way–doesn’t upgrade her value in any way.
Clearly the value of the foal is impacted by the dam sire’s fee. Whether that is rational or not, that is the simple face of the matter and, as I said, is not an argument for breeding.
[QUOTE=Calamber;7712074]
Clearly the value of the foal is impacted by the dam sire’s fee. Whether that is rational or not, that is the simple face of the matter and, as I said, is not an argument for breeding.[/QUOTE]
I’ve rarely seen this.
Dam sire is probably the least influential factor from the immediate pedigree in the value of a thoroughbred race foal.
Dam line black-type rules a catalog page, which is ultimately going to generate how much interest a horse receives at the sales.
Sires generate buzz, help set a price range, and somewhat regulate the “supply and demand” of the year’s foal crop.
Dam sires get mentioned in passing and go virtually ignored unless they happen to be a leading broodmare sire.
Malibu Moon has not even dented the 100 leading broodmare sire list ever in his career. Considering that he entered stud FOURTEEN years ago, he’s had plenty of time and opportunity to muster an appearance through his early daughters if they were of exceptional value today.
I have a TB mare that I bred this year. She has a decent pedigree (Sky Mesa). It is my first attempt at breeding (for racing). My goal is to sell the foal as a weanling or yearling. I have no desire to race my own, not yet. I live very close to OBS, and the breeder’s incentives in FL are decent, so that all figured into my decision. If I lived in a different state that may have been a different story.
My mare herself is not black type; as a matter of fact she never broke her maiden. However, she’s had some half siblings that sold fairly well at auction, and her dam was black type. Her grand-dam produced 4 black type horses. Not Breeder’s Cup winners, but good runners non-the-less.
I spent hours and hours combing the internet for that information, and agonized for 2 years before finally deciding to breed her.
I picked a freshman Florida sire that I got a very good deal on. I love his pedigree, but even better, I met the horse in person and LOVED him as an individual. He is powerfully built, athletic, was a very useful grade 2 winner on the track, tall, good looking with a personality of a puppy dog. So, worst case scenario I think the cross would be an excellent sport horse prospect. I’m an eventer so that’s fine with me. 
In another moment of weakness, I recently bought a second broodmare to breed next year (she came out of a divorce sale so was a great price). She came to me too late (and quite thin) so I couldn’t get her bred this year. She was a very useful runner/winner, earned $80K, had several siblings sell for high five figures/low six figures at the sales, and her dam is also black type. I have to still do more research on her but I’m excited about her.
So, neither are world beaters (well - you never know) BUT - I did my research and I believe that they will bring a good return on investment. Because of my location, I have access to some excellent studs all within 30 minute driving distance.
So that’s my “amateur” race breeding story; maybe some of that will help you. I have no intention of holding on to the foals long enough to race (unless I keep them for sport horse purposes). So, that makes my business plan a little more reasonable. I am also located in the mecca for sales (second only to Kentucky) so even a private sale will be a good possibility for me (and I plan on pursuing that before committing to OBS).
Oh and speaking of broodmare sires - you have no idea how HAPPY I was that “I Spent It” won the Saratoga Special - DAMSIRE SKY MESA!
[QUOTE=Texarkana;7712181]
I’ve rarely seen this.
Dam sire is probably the least influential factor from the immediate pedigree in the value of a thoroughbred race foal.
Dam line black-type rules a catalog page, which is ultimately going to generate how much interest a horse receives at the sales.
Sires generate buzz, help set a price range, and somewhat regulate the “supply and demand” of the year’s foal crop.
Dam sires get mentioned in passing and go virtually ignored unless they happen to be a leading broodmare sire.
Malibu Moon has not even dented the 100 leading broodmare sire list ever in his career. Considering that he entered stud FOURTEEN years ago, he’s had plenty of time and opportunity to muster an appearance through his early daughters if they were of exceptional value today.[/QUOTE]
^^ Texarkana beat me to it.
[QUOTE=Texarkana;7712181]
I’ve rarely seen this.
Dam sire is probably the least influential factor from the immediate pedigree in the value of a thoroughbred race foal.
Dam line black-type rules a catalog page, which is ultimately going to generate how much interest a horse receives at the sales.
Sires generate buzz, help set a price range, and somewhat regulate the “supply and demand” of the year’s foal crop.
Dam sires get mentioned in passing and go virtually ignored unless they happen to be a leading broodmare sire.
Malibu Moon has not even dented the 100 leading broodmare sire list ever in his career. Considering that he entered stud FOURTEEN years ago, he’s had plenty of time and opportunity to muster an appearance through his early daughters if they were of exceptional value today.[/QUOTE]
If you were so careful to read a little more history of Malibu Moon you will know he did not get the powerhouse mares until much later, so, it is still time and could be that the 3 generation will exceed all expectations, such is the beauty of racing and breeding plus there are some very good nicks for this line. At this point I am sure none of this will matter to you because I think you are arguing just for the sake of it. I like Malibu Moon, I like the kind of horses and the temperament of the horses that he produces and I don’t think if the OP does due diligence on nicks that she will produce anything that would constitute a lost cause.
http://runroughshod.blogspot.com/2013/01/macoumba-and-malibu-moon.html
http://cs.bloodhorse.com/blogs/truenicks/archive/2010/06/28/moon.aspx
Have fun OP, I would love to see a picture of the mare if you have one.
[QUOTE=Calamber;7712311]
If you were so careful to read a little more history of Malibu Moon you will know he did not get the powerhouse mares until much later, so, it is still time and could be that the 3 generation will exceed all expectations, such is the beauty of racing and breeding plus there are some very good nicks for this line. At this point I am sure none of this will matter to you because I think you are arguing just for the sake of it. I like Malibu Moon, I like the kind of horses and the temperament of the horses that he produces and I don’t think if the OP does due diligence on nicks that she will produce anything that would constitute a lost cause. [/QUOTE]
If you read back in this thread, you would see I was the first to post about his history. 
Not trying to be snarky. Honest. I was regularly at Country Life in the early 2000s, I saw him lots and dealt with plenty by him. I think he’s awesome. But I don’t think he makes the OP’s mare “valuable.” Nor do I really want folks to perpetuate that thought, since it is very untrue. I would hate for someone to lose big bank breeding a mare predominately because of the broodmare sire.
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