Is this aggressive or good horsemanship

[Equkelly]

I’d need to hear more details too. A kick in the belly wouldn’t be my plan personally but when a horse is being a brat, a good assertive smack is warranted. I don’t think the horse looked at you in fear, I think the horse probably looked at you like “oh sht!” I have a young horse too, and there’s a difference between being understanding with them because they are young and letting them be pushy and bratty. So no, I probably wouldn’t have kicked her in the belly. But also she might’ve needed that “oh sht” moment because it sounds like you might’ve been letting her get away with too much.

Now, this said, if this were my horse I would not want to be at a barn that had vastly different ground manner standards than me because that’s not fair to the horse. You can’t let your horse get away with things that the staff and BM will not. If you don’t mind the pushiness and dancing around that’s on you, but it’s confusing to your horse when acceptable behavior is all of a sudden unacceptable. When you talk about “that look of fear” I don’t think that’s what it was. I think that horse was just so used to being allowed to dance around and be a brat that when someone told her NO, she was a little shocked and confused.

So, I see 2 options here. Either you raise your ground manner expectations for your horse, or you go to another facility with similar expectations to yours and where they don’t need to handle your horse on a regular basis. It’s just not fair to the horse or to the barn staff if your horse is acting like a brat all the time and you’re not doing anything about it.

[Scribbler]

You already have several threads asking if it’s time to leave this situation. Perhaps it is.

https://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/forum/discussion-forums/off-course/10654860-how-do-you-know-when-to-leave

[trubandloki]

OP, are you still at the barn you talk about in this thread?

https://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/f…orse-questionshttps://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/f…orse-questions

[Bluey]

Maybe the horse felt that someone doing something to his hind hooves for a bit meant he was supposed to lift a foot for them?
He may have been trying to please, just could not figure why they were touching his feet and didn’t meant move them, then finally too scared to move, found out it was what she was supposed to do.

We can’t know, just one more possibility.

[equestrianna]

I’m of the mindset that a knee to the belly is never appropriate unless it is a self-defense maneuver in which the horse is doing something truly dangerous like lunging to bite at you. I don’t consider it a good training method and wouldn’t trust that person to handle my horse anymore. There are many many better ways to appropriately train a horse to stand quietly for a procedure. I feel like that method is eminently disrespectful of the horse and will definitely erode their trust in you. It’s like if I was doing something incorrectly at work and my boss came up and smacked me in the head. It would probably stop me in the moment but I would be incredibly suspicious of her from then on out and would quit my job…

[fordtraktor]

Based on the other thread, you are at an AQHA western barn. IME, and I spent years doing AQHA shows as a kid, their tolerance for anything less than perfect manners is nonexistent and they are usually quite aggressive in addressing poor manners. Ask one time nice, then CTJ moment. How else do you think they get horses so broke at age 2-3?

On the plus side, usually the horses DO have impeccable manners at a very young age. I am still amazed at how RUDE many hunter/jumper/dressage horses are and it’s considered funny. I try to walk a middle ground with my horses, but I do expect them to behave and I will carry a dressage whip when handling one that doesn’t. I love my horses but they can hurt people so fast. lifting a hind hoof like that is one step away from a swift cow kick.

I would move anyway, because I don’t want my horse trained to death at age 3, but be sure you continue working on the manners. I disagree that there should be a dozen steps between first resistance and eventual swatting of the horse. Mine still get one warning and then I will tap with the dressage whip. It’s like when riding, ask once and if you don’t get a response use the heavy aid and don’t be happy unless you get an over response. Otherwise you are just a nag and training the horse you really don’t mind much at all when it is rude.

[CPL713]

Yes, the horse should be able to comfortably stand for hoof polish. Yes, there are likely holes in your horse’s training that should be addressed. And, yes, there are times when you have to do something that seems a bit rough to get your point across or even save your own life when working with horses.

I can say with 100% certainty that if I saw someone kick/knee/whatever my horse in the stomach for any other reason than “oh $*!^, I’m about to die and this is self-defense time”, they would be losing my business ASAP. Of course we would need a lot more detail to be able to say for certain what those holes/issues might be, but honestly it’s not relevant.

There are a thousand ways to train a horse, some I agree with and some I don’t, but it sounds like YOU believe that kicking a horse in the gut isn’t productive, so why waste more money there (or time talking about it here)? At the end of the day, it’s your horse, so it doesn’t matter if what that groom did was a “valid training method” or not.

[Equkelly]

@CPL713

At the end of the day, it’s your horse, so it doesn’t matter if what that groom did was a “valid training method” or not.

I agree with this. There’s not really a point in talking about what’s normal or not. It’s apparently normal at your barn so that’s all that matters.

It just sounds like your views and the barns views on acceptable force do not align. Which is fine but just know, THEY will not be changing their ways to appease you so don’t plan on giving someone a good talking to or writing a strongly worded email or whatever. Your options are leave or be fine with it.

Any time you’re at a barn and someone else is regularly handing your horse or even just in the same space as them regularly, you all kind of need to be on the same page. At my barn my horse is in a shared pasture with a few others. The other owners and I are all on the same page about acceptable force. I know if my mare is being pushy and trying to run them over they can and should smack her. They also know if their horses are trying to plow me over I’m going to smack them. It’s all good and nobody clutches their pearls BECAUSE we all agree on what’s acceptable and what’s not. If we didn’t have that, there’d be problems.

[miminorthwest]

@trubandloki

OP, are you still at the barn you talk about in this thread?

https://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/f…orse-questionshttps://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/f…orse-questions

sigh. Yes I am. I have made calls and am taking the leap!

[miminorthwest]

@Bluey

Maybe the horse felt that someone doing something to his hind hooves for a bit meant he was supposed to lift a foot for them?
He may have been trying to please, just could not figure why they were touching his feet and didn’t meant move them, then finally too scared to move, found out it was what she was supposed to do.

We can’t know, just one more possibility.

yes that is possible. She wasn’t lifting to kick, she just wasn’t standing perfectly still. She lifts for me to pick her feet, stands decently for farrier. She’s also 3.

[miminorthwest]

@mvp

It is, provided the horse has been schooled correctly. If not then the first time someone wants the horse to become more attentive and obedient, it can look a little violent.

As to the boot in the belly. Meh, I think you can pick a better “shock and awe” method or weapon or place to get into a horse. But these are large, stout animals and I don’t think the average person is going to do damage to a horse with a single boot to the belly.

OP, if you have been there for a year and your horse hasn’t been taught to stand and accept hoof polish, I think that alone signals a problem. But you don’t need to get mad at someone else for getting mad at the fact that your horse is so uneducated. Just fix the training issue.

And therein lies the issue… she’s at a “training” barn, has been in full time training for just over a year… it was the assistant trainer/groom who kicked her. Like, real nice training skills. It’s been somewhat of a nightmare in small moments mixed with good moments. If I didn’t work so much I would have been there more often, but I figure I’m the person with all the money, paying folks to do the bulk of the training work. I don’t expect miracles, I’m laid back and forgiving … too laid back.

[Pippigirl]

@miminorthwest

Wow, that’s rich? Welp, my horses belly isn’t a soccer ball and she punted it like one. She is also incredibly sensitive there and I had been working on getting her used to that area (young horse).

Perhaps it’s the mother bear instinct in me but I’d be furious (understatement) if someone took over and decided to boot my horse. I wouldn’t have a problem if she stepped in to help you correct, (ie verbally tell you what to do), then you decide how to proceed.

[Jackie_amp_Starlette]

There was a trainer in my area several years ago that broke several whips on a horse that would not pick up it’s feet. Yeah, like that worked. (No it didn’t ). I stopped associating with her after that (there were several other incidents - typical western pleasure trainer on the fast track).

[ravenclaw]

Several years ago, I had a TB/QH filly. She hadn’t been ridden when I got her and she was the first horse that I started myself. She was fine when I started getting on her in the stall. When we moved to the round pen, she started squealing and picking up a back leg when I got on her. I asked my friend about it (friend isn’t a professional trainer but she is good at training both horses and dogs). My friend said “Squeal back at her and kick her in the side. That’s what her mom would do.” So I tried it. I didn’t kick her as hard as I could, but hard enough to get her attention. I could tell she was shocked and she looked at me like “Oh, sh*t!” She never squealed at me or picked up a back leg again.

I don’t think approaches like this are always the answer, but it worked for me in this situation where I think she was just being a brat and/or trying to be dominant.

[shiloh]

It’s pretty simple: You kick my horse in the gut, I pick you up bodily and chuck you down the aisle headfirst. Then I move.

You apparently did not appreciate this move by the “trainer.” You know what to do. Say something. Or not. Your call. But I second the “if they do that when you are there…what happens when you aren’t” feeling.

[Weluvhaha]

I have experienced many situations like this over the years and in my earlier years I always acquiesced to the “more experienced” trainers or grooms. Not anymore. I deeply regret exposing my horse to the abuse and some injuries that these people inflicted. The only people who ever hurt my horse were smug and mean trainers. Sadly, the horse world gives these people a lot of cover. Now I am extremely protective of my horses. No one touches my horses but me. Posters are correct when they say that if this is what is going on when you are present, you can only imagine what is going on when you are not. Trust me the abuse is 10 times worse when the owners leave. I have seen it all.

Remember, when someone violates your horse, they are violating YOU. Those people are mean, disrespectful, lazy or unskilled (how much skill and “experience” does it take to kick an animal?!). Fortunately there are barns where kindness and gentleness and skillful handling is practiced. Handling like you described would be seen as appalling, abusive, and grounds for dismissal. Find one of those barns ASAP.

[RhythmNCruise]

I spent a lot of time as a young adult in the AQHA world, so I am used to the “no nonsense” approach to training that is the norm with trainers in the stock/“western” breeds. In fact, I have pretty high expectations for my own horses, and raised the to have excellent ground manners too. I think I’ve probably kicked one in the stomach before even, though I’m not proud of that fact, and it was totally because I was being impatient and let my emotions get the better of me. I would never resort to that now, unless somehow it was in self defense, though honestly I can’t see how kicking a horse in the stomach is going to do much in that regard. There is literally no excuse for it, and as you point out, it’s a clear sign of the kicker’s lack of skill or patience in that moment. It was with me.

Now, if your filly was pinning her ears and wringing her tail and making ugly faces while moving her feet away, I could see a sharp correction. I’d move her feet more than she wanted for a minute or two and then see if she was better to stand. If she wasn’t, or if she wasn’t being nasty about it and was simply moving around because she didn’t know why you were down there messing with her feet, the simplest solution would be for someone to pick up the foot opposite of the one you’re trying to polish and hold it while you do. Then work around her that way and praise her. She’d see that there’s nothing terrible about having hoof polish put on and she’d be spared the wrath of someone’s short fuse.

In conclusion…get out of there. As someone else said, if they’re willing to do that in front of you, what the heck are they willing to do when you’re not around? And unfortunately, the mind reels at the amount of horrible sh*t these so-called “trainers” will do to horses. I’ve heard and unfortunately seen things that turn my stomach.

[SuzieQNutter]

Nope a horse in training for a year should be very used to stading still.

My correction is to say uh uh.

If you dont move today at least call and take her out of training while she is there.

[tabula_rashah]

I don’t think it’s the most effective method of correction but it’s better than letting her dance around. At 3, standing still for whatever you’re asking for should not be an issue. Stop making excuses for bad horse behavior.

But on the other hand, it’s your horse. If you don’t want people handling your horse in a certain way, pull up your big girl panties and say something then and there.

[Gamma]

@Bluey

Maybe the horse felt that someone doing something to his hind hooves for a bit meant he was supposed to lift a foot for them?
He may have been trying to please, just could not figure why they were touching his feet and didn’t meant move them, then finally too scared to move, found out it was what she was supposed to do.

We can’t know, just one more possibility.

This is such a pet peeve for me, seems like a lot of people think this is harmless behavior so they don’t bother to remedy it, even when it’s really simple: teach a solid cue for lifting the hoof up, and any time the horse lifts the hoof when you didn’t ask just leave them hanging. Holding a hoof up is hard enough work, I’ve never had one who really wanted to do it once they figured out that it wasn’t necessary without the cue. (I also like a verbal cue, just so it really can’t be mistaken. It’s not like the horse police come around and fine you for using verbal cues on the ground.)