Is this cause for concern?

[paintedpennypony]

What protein additives did you add specifically? Looking for brand names.

I also bought the Posture Prep because if I’m being honest with myself, I think mare has seemed just generally a bit sore the entire time I’ve had her. Not sore enough to be bite-y or reactive in anyway, but just enough to notice it in her demeanor. I am also constantly paranoid she’s lame and have been worried that I’ve been seeing something just like 5% NQR even before I pulled her out of work, but I repeatedly asked my trainer, the chiro, and boarders with much more experience than me and no one ever thought she was lame. But reading now that shifting and intermittent lameness is also a symptom.

There came a point this summer before she got injured where she was so. damn. hard to move forward, and if I even thought about relaxing my seat she would instantly drop down to a walk. The first time I got her a massage, the bodyworker was shocked at how tight she was for a 3yo. But there were a lot of things about that environment that I rationalized as the cause… lots of horses in a tiny dry lot with deep mud footing, and she was constantly getting kicked and bit and chased away from hay (we moved pretty quickly).

I attributed her soreness to the herd dynamics and our ex-trainer pushing her too far too fast. But now I’m rethinking everything

[paintedpennypony]

I’ll have to report back when I go see her again. She definitely is not reactive to it when I’m brushing her but I’ve never tried to work my hands into it.

[dr5627]

Just a note that the Equiseq test is not peer reviewed, in fact an independent research paper has shown that the variants they talk about are not associated with PSSM/MFM/MIM at all. MIM is a made up term by the Equiseq people by the way, not an officially recognized term. I recommend starting at Dr. Valberg’s website. https://ker.com/nmdl/resources/

Current research is showing that the high protein diet is beneficial for warmbloods and Arabians who actually don’t usually have PSSM1 or 2 but something they are now calling MFM to distinguish it. It’s diagnosed by muscle biopsy, not a genetic test. Or you can just do a diet trial and see if it helps.

Stock breeds, including your paint, typically have either classic PSSM1 which IS a validated genetic test from UC Davis for about $40, or they get classified as PSSM2 (basically a catch-all for anything that’s not the PSSM1 gene). PSSM2 is also diagnosed by muscle biopsy from your vet. The treatment for PSSM2 in stock horses will be the same as PSSM1, that’s your “keto” diet referenced above as the disease involves glycogen storage issues, again a diet trial can also be done vs waiting for a vet to do a biopsy.

Edit to add: this webinar was incredibly helpful to me to make sense of it all. https://ker.com/equinews/webinar-available-nutritional-management-of-horses-with-muscle-disorders/

[Ghazzu]

The line appears to be the caudal border of the tensor fascia lata and the cranial edge of the superficial gluteal, but I’m not sure of the significance of its prominence.

[paintedpennypony]

Thank you very much

[Ridethroughit23]

I agree about testing for pssm. I have a 12 year old cob with it and he has this line as well. He does ok with appropriate management!

[PaddockWood]

I’ve got the Uckele acytl-L-carnitine and Peak Performance BCAAs going.

And you do want to confirm you are feeding enough of the major aminos or they’re not able to “use” the other ones - the ALCAR and BCAAs. Are you able to test your hay and add up everything you are feeding and confirm you’re getting enough protein etc?

Listen to episode 115 (about muscle disorders) on the Feed Room Chemist and she has another one on amino acids.
https://strideanimalhealth.com/podcasts/

Maybe you’ll get lucky and her issues are from her past environment. I hope that’s the case for you.

[AmmyHour926]

Genetic testing for pssm2 (minus the valid pssm1 test) is basically useless. Do the biopsy if you really want to know, but go ahead and make diet changes and go from there. As a shock to no one most horses “improve” with the diet change because it’s a forage focused diet with low sugar and appropriate amounts of vit and minerals.

I wasted a lot of time going down the rabbit hole on pssm Facebook groups and in the end wish I had just tweaked diet and moved on vs chasing a diagnosis.

[JB]

@paintedpennypony

In your experience, what are signs that they’re reacting positively to a diet change w/o riding them to determine their forwardness?

You’ll probably want to get some regular body work done in the process, but generally, the horse just starts looking better. Muscles “fluff”. Striations go away. Movement becomes more fluid.

Take regular conformation-type pictures, and video even if it’s just walking at the end of the lunge line, whatever’s appropriate for the stage of rehab. If it needs to be straight line walking, then have someone video you (or you them) walking across the field of view.

@paintedpennypony

I’m feeling pretty horrible because if she does test positive then this would definitely explain a lot, like almost her entire demeanor.

Don’t feel bad! Everyone I know in your shoes who ended up with some MIM variant diagnosis, feels bad they didn’t know, but how could you? Now it’s time to feel empowered because you have a direction to pursue

@PaddockWood

I thought EquiSec had been discredited by vet community?

Yes and…sorta LOL There’s zero validity to them using testing to say any asymptomatic horse has any MIM disease, not like PSSM1. But there’s likely some validity to pointing to which variant(s) are causing the symptoms of a symptomatic horse. The issue is MIM is likely multi-genetic, and the variant testing ES does is only 1 part of the puzzle.

Muscle biopsy is a little iffy, as it takes the vet’s skill, and a symptomatic horse, and it doesn’t tell you which variant(s) are present.

[paintedpennypony]

Would you suggest just adding pure whey isolate powder to start off with? I was deliberately feeding her an NSC friendly diet to begin with so I’m unsure of what other dietary changes to make, besides adding an oil.

[JB]

I think that’s a reasonable place to start

[RedHorses]

I have one with PSSM. He’s been recovering from injuries for a year. Hand walking every day really helps him burn the glycogen he is storing. He is on a low NSC diet and lives outside, but he needs that regular walk. I go for 20-30 minutes, and include gentle slopes and short trots depending on where he is in rehab. I got a little lax after a reinjury late spring and he started rope walking. I hadn’t known that could be a symptom of PSSM and it did reduce and eventually go away after I got his walking back on track.

I found out about his PSSM around 15 years ago, when pretty much all you could do was change the diet and management and see what happened. My horse also tested very low in Selenium and E at the time and was started with weekly injections before transferring to oral supplements.

The changes were slow and gradual, but I had a different horse four months after changing his diet. I was already doing everything else right from a management perspective. It initially got worse before it got better for my horse, but as I was riding I really felt it.

I figured out what he needed, and had a few hiccups along the way when something was done that I didn’t know was going to be a problem until it was a problem. I learned that too much glycogen feels like NQR, and I need to ride more to burn off that glycogen instead of giving time off as one normally would. Note that more riding is not necessarily harder/faster work, but cutting the ride short or allowing him to shuffle around were always wrong answers.

Because I figured out what works for my horse, I didn’t keep up with all the new knowledge about PSSM and variants. He’s 25, looks fantastic, and I am not going to mess with his management at this point.

[paintedpennypony]

Thank you. How have you learned to discern between lame and NQR from the PSSM?

[RedHorses]

I didn’t really. If he feels NQR and I can’t point to a specific leg (so NQR as opposed to mild lameness) I keep riding. It’s a hard thing to learn, but important to “be mean” and go on riding.

I’ll get him walking and insist on a marching walk. The whole time I’m evaluating his responses and testing if the NQR is becoming specific lameness. My horse’s PSSM flares feel like he won’t go forward freely, and I have to push and often remind him to march. If the forward improves I will add in little trots and see how he responds. They have to be little, short trots because too much demand can cause tying up. Low key, steady, aerobic exercise is necessary to keep the glycogen supply trickling into the muscles.

I prefer to do this out of the ring whenever possible as the variations in terrain provide additional, low key demands for body movement.

If the NQR is actually lameness, this sort of low key exercise with constant evaluation is unlikely to make any lameness significantly worse than stopping the ride amd putting the horse back in the paddock. At the same time it might be enough to irritate the lameness enough to be able to identity the source.

This exercise doesn’t necessarily clear the glycogen and make the horse move freely by the end of the ride. It does tend to reduce or eliminate the NQR by the following day, while giving the day off tends to make PSSM caused NQR worse the next day. This is, of course, from my experience with my own horse.

TBH I probably can tell the difference at this point, but I can’t put it into words what I’m specifically noticing.

[paintedpennypony]

I evaluated that area tonight and it’s very loose. It almost feels like an absence of muscle on one side and I can feel a muscle cord or something underneath the skin on the other side, but it isn’t tight. Overall, both sides are very loose and seem more like atrophied muscle more than anything.

[PaddockWood]

That is so interesting. I’d love to hear from pro bodyworkers on what you are describing. I’ve never had a horse with a long line like that. Will be so interesting to have you report back in 4 weeks with what you see now and feel.

@JB how long would you say it normally takes to see and feel a difference after getting the amino acids going?

[paintedpennypony]

I would be inclined to guess it’s atrophy considering she’s been out of work since July, but she’s had it the entire year I’ve owned her!

What’s even more interesting is after ~45 min with the PosturePrep last night, it looked like the lines were less prominent. My eyes may have been playing tricks on me, but they looked noticeably fuller. Confirmation bias? Difference of lighting? Time will tell! She’ll be started on whey isolate next week and I will update in a month!

[JB]

@PaddockWood

how long would you say it normally takes to see and feel a difference after getting the amino acids going?

Gosh, not sure I can quantify that since it probably depends on how much the lack of extra has been contributing. But I’d say a few weeks should give you an idea about heading in the right direction

[paintedpennypony]

It looks WAY less severe after using the PosturePrep for just a second time today? Could that imply some sort of muscle strain?

[Ghazzu]

Do you have any local people who do myofacial release bodywork?
Might be just the thing.