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Is this "daisy cutter" movement?

Hunter/Jumper
#1

Hi-I am new to the forum, and decidedly an amateur, so please accept apologies if I ask a ridiculous question :slight_smile:

I have two 6 yo thoroughbred geldings, never raced. They were originally from a rescue. I have had both for a few years and due to work, only had time to get to a green broke stage, so sent them off for training this week.

One gelding moves “oddly”. Not lame but just seems to stretch his feet way out from under his body when he moves and have a disproportionate long stride? Or maybe his body is not sized quite right to his legs? Ive always thought it a bit weird but then somebody mentioned to me he might have “daisy cutter” movement like a hunter would have.

Would you guys mind taking a peek at his movement and telling me if it is what would be considered “daisy cutter” type movement? Maybe what he might have potential to be good at with this type of movement?

My primary goal with him is just to love him as a pleasure horse, but I do want to make sure he is trained enough that if I should die tomorrow, he would find a good home and not end up in slaughter. :slight_smile: His is a bit naughty in the video clips, forgive him as he is a bit green. my fault, thus the six weeks in training! One is of him lunging and the other, his first day with the trainer.

Also, I delusionally think he is the most beautiful horse ever, lol, but I promise I wont take offense if you say he has the confirmation of a mutant!

Much thanks for any thoughts!

https://www.facebook.com/tina.rakos/videos/1079651098795867/

https://www.facebook.com/tina.rakos/videos/1103524793075164/

#2

While he is fairly flat kneed and does point his toes , it’s very hard to tell in this video , He does not seem as if he moves freely through his shoulder and could have some issues there . In the under saddle video he almost appears stiff in through the shoulders especially the left … The trainer you sent him to should be able to help you with this question .

#3

I’m no Hunter expert but I really like his extension. I think you have a nice basis to work from.

#4

I would not call that daisy cutter movement but fairly average movement for a TB. That said, TBs are very versatile horses, so he could do any number of things depending on how his training goes. :slight_smile:

#5

Not quite daisy cutter (would need to be flatter kneed, and little more flick of the toe like it could cut the tops off of daisies with it’s feet), but the first is a decent mover for sure! I wouldn’t say it’s exceptional, but definitely decent and looks like it will be a nice ride.

#6

He is a very nice mover considering that he is “cheating” when he trots.

I agree with Mikes Mcs that he moves from the elbow and not from his shoulder. If your trainer can get him to learn to use his shoulder so he initiates each trot step from his scapula/humerus joint (aka the point of the shoulder), instead of from the joint at the bottom of his scapula (aka: the elbow), he could become an incredible mover.

Think of the humerus as our upper arm. A horse who is said to “cheat” is moving his legs (our lower arm and hand) from his elbow joint, as opposed to moving from the shoulder. You can see how much more flexible he would be if his “upper arm” [ulna] became part of each stride.

I am not an anatomist (is that a word?), so I may be explaining this poorly. Hopefully the analogy between his conformation and ours helps it make sense.

As he is now, perhaps this is why you cannot decide if he is a good mover. The answer is yes and no. :slight_smile:

#7

Honestly, I saw a horse that looks a bit sore and that cant use itself properly. Hes very undermuscled so it could just be that, but I’d be looking really hard at saddle fit etc. He looks like he will move well when hes fit and working well, but there are lots of things in the videos that scream that the horse isnt quite right

#8

No I don’t think he is a daisy cutter. From the undersaddle video, he appears to pop his shoulder out and his “body doesn’t follow his head”. Which may be what you’re referring to stretching his feet away from his body?

#9

What kind of horse are you used to watching? Have you seen many thoroughbreds or warmbloods trot out? Or are you comparing him to ponies and quarterhorses that have small trots?

I don’t see particularly long strides for an English-style horse here. If anything, he seems a bit short in front in the longing video. It could be stiff shoulders, as one of the posters says; I can see what they mean. It could also be sore feet. Is he landing a bit toe-first at the trot?

I was also wondering why you were free longing with the stirrups hanging down and banging his sides, not run up the leathers and tied up if they were slipping down?

#10

I think he is an attractive horse and a nice mover. He is probably quite unfit and as he muscles up and learns how to carry himself will move nicer yet. I wouldn’t be so critical of a green horse that is somewhat clueless, he looks to have potential to be a nice horse down the road. I have had horses that were fair movers become super movers winning at top A shows with time, proper farrier and proper training. He definitely needs training to overcome his discipline problems, but it all takes time and hopefully he will become the horse you are hoping he will be

#11

He’s very cute! I don’t know much about good trots or daisy cutter trots, but his trot reminds me a LOT of my OTTB’s.

#12

The other thing of course is that OTTBs have spent zero time being schooled at the trot. They get exercised at canter and gallop. And while they are used to having a rider on their back, they have not done circles or other figures, and tend to be quite stiff from running in one direction around the track all the time.

Horse also looks like he is going short in front in the under-saddle video, but is stepping out quite nicely with his hind legs.

It could be overall balance at the trot, under saddle, doing figures. It could be sore front feet, from trim or from a hoof problem. It could be higher up, in the shoulder, either a restriction or really bad saddle fit. If you longe him without a saddle and his gaits are the same, it isn’t saddle fit!

If it’s at the hoof level, then probably both feet are about equally sore, so it isn’t showing up as a visible one-sided lameness. is he wearing shoes, or did you recently take off his shoes, or change farriers?

Ask all your care team about this, trainer, farrier, vet when he’s out, chiro or massage, saddle fitter. I’d say it isn’t yet time to invest a huge deal in vet diagnostics, but keep an eye on things and see if it resolves a bit with fitness, massage, training, first.

#13

[QUOTE=MIKES MCS;8816913]
While he is fairly flat kneed and does point his toes , it’s very hard to tell in this video , He does not seem as if he moves freely through his shoulder and could have some issues there . In the under saddle video he almost appears stiff in through the shoulders especially the left … The trainer you sent him to should be able to help you with this question .[/QUOTE]

This makes perfect sense. When I first got him, he resisted turning to the left very strongly when being lunged and later under saddle and I had a friend mention his shoulders at the withers seem asymmetric.

[QUOTE=Lord Helpus;8817135]He is a very nice mover considering that he is “cheating” when he trots.

I agree with Mikes Mcs that he moves from the elbow and not from his shoulder. If your trainer can get him to learn to use his shoulder so he initiates each trot step from his scapula/humerus joint (aka the point of the shoulder), instead of from the joint at the bottom of his scapula (aka: the elbow), he could become an incredible mover.

Think of the humerus as our upper arm. A horse who is said to “cheat” is moving his legs (our lower arm and hand) from his elbow joint, as opposed to moving from the shoulder. You can see how much more flexible he would be if his “upper arm” [ulna] became part of each stride.

I am not an anatomist (is that a word?), so I may be explaining this poorly. Hopefully the analogy between his conformation and ours helps it make sense.

As he is now, perhaps this is why you cannot decide if he is a good mover. The answer is yes and no. :)[/QUOTE]

This is EXTREMELY helpful, thank you!! I knew something seemed weird but I couldnt figure out what-as he has widened he reminded me of a tube of sausage with scissor blades going back and forth under it in a disconnected sort of way, lol.

As Mike suggested, I will work with the trainer of of course my vet, but are there general approaches such as massage, stretches, certain types of ground or under saddle exercises that can help? Additionally, are there ways the vet can medically access how much pain he may be in, if any? I suffer at times from pinched nerves in my neck and have to do yoga to fix, but id hate to put him in that level of discomfort if the shoulder stiffness derives from pain.

#14

[QUOTE=frankiec;8817155]
Honestly, I saw a horse that looks a bit sore and that cant use itself properly. Hes very undermuscled so it could just be that, but I’d be looking really hard at saddle fit etc. He looks like he will move well when hes fit and working well, but there are lots of things in the videos that scream that the horse isnt quite right[/QUOTE]

You may have a good point on “isnt quite right.” He has a bit of a rough history. From weanling to age three he and a group of 40 other Tbs were left on poor pasture. A number starved to death and when they were surrender, the rescue lost three more almost immediately.

In this picture he is the little bay in front. All of these horses were three but were the size of weanlings and emaciated.:
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=937019949725650&l=68cc9f7b71

There has always been the very real understanding when I adopted the pair, that they may have developmental abnormalities that render them just pets. Part of the slow progression in training has been just giving them time to grow up. Sometimes I look at him and think he looks fine, but sometimes he seems not proportioned quite right, i dunno.

Twenety years ago, I worked at an arab farm, so most of my horse knowledge stems from watching arab hunters, western and english pleasure horses move-very little observation of TBs or warmbloods, so not sure what norm would be.

[QUOTE=Scribbler;8817487]
I don’t see particularly long strides for an English-style horse here. If anything, he seems a bit short in front in the longing video. It could be stiff shoulders, as one of the posters says; I can see what they mean. It could also be sore feet. Is he landing a bit toe-first at the trot?[/QUOTE]

I will try and observe the toe first landing. I own five acres of rocky limestone hills, and while their feet have toughened considerably, we do still get bruises and ouchies from time to time.

Thoughtlessness on my part. That was the first time I used that saddle and I had failed to pay attention and tie up the stirrups. I suspect part of the bucking was due to annoyance at the banging stirrups.

#15

Well, in the free lunge video he’s not moving out enough on that tiny sort of circle he’s not staying on to tell much at all, he’s not using himself ir on a proper bend and is humped up trying to buck when the dangling irons bang him. The under saddle one he’s too Green to relax into a good trot and he’s sucking back. Not going to judge him on his movement or potential off these. Need to see him on a long straightway at a relaxed, forward trot…being properly on the bridle also allows them to really show what they can do.

I don’t see any serious “naughty” anywhere, just a horse that doesn’t know what to do. That’s not his fault.

He doesn’t appear to have the potential to be a daisy cutter, which is fine, don’t see it so much in these days of the WBs. I don’t see long strided here at all here. That might be just a function of Greeness and lack of condition/balance but, IME, if they don’t track up even early on, the step is not there. But also don’t see awkward or clumsy, he’s doing OK, no worries.

Hes cute, like to see him after 90 days in a good program. Nice type you coukd go several directions with…even if he doesn’t have that sweeping flat kneed trot step from the shoulder and a 14’ stride.

#16

[QUOTE=Laurie E;8817611]
I think he is an attractive horse and a nice mover. He is probably quite unfit and as he muscles up and learns how to carry himself will move nicer yet. I wouldn’t be so critical of a green horse that is somewhat clueless, he looks to have potential to be a nice horse down the road. I have had horses that were fair movers become super movers winning at top A shows with time, proper farrier and proper training. He definitely needs training to overcome his discipline problems, but it all takes time and hopefully he will become the horse you are hoping he will be[/QUOTE]

It sounds a bit odd, but I think he would one day (in spite of all the naughtiness) be a very good lesson horse and actually enjoy that type of job. He is a bit of a stubborn, calm, and a non-linear learner, but is very methodical and analytical. Its a ton of fun to watch him think about stuff and figure it out. He often seems half mule as if he doesnt understand the point of something, he simply doesnt agree it should be done until you help him see. However even once he understands, he then tests every possible wrong way to do it, lol, before finally settling down and being good.

Once he gets past his initial strongly held opinion, he is really quite reasonable and seems to want to take responsibility for other horses and people around him, always watching out to be sure he doesnt step on you and always the brave one to check out the new thing and be sweet to the children. I love this about him and the trainer really likes him as well because of how clever he is.

I think he must get this from his dad, a horse named Arctic Boy, who was so calm the day he ran in the derby, that a young girl in the make-a-wish program could ride him around for 20 minutes:
http://articles.latimes.com/2001/may/05/sports/sp-59638

Hopefully it works out, as I think he would like a job where he felt useful.

#17

Full pedigree, if you don’t mind, that is? He is interesting, in a good way!

#18

I like him. He might not be a hack winner but I bet he will be very pretty and appealing on the flat once he moves freely. But just basing that off the flat, couldn’t get the riding one to play.

#19

I can’t find a super good video but there’s a local sidesaddle horse in my area named Garnet that I think is a prime example of what daisy cutters look like today. A little less throughbredy than when I was a kid, but a daisy cutter for sure. There was also a mare by Just the Best whose name escapes me (bay with white, not a big mare). I don’t think she ever become a bigtime horse or anything but that trot was as daisy cutter as I’ve seen on a non TB.

I feel like they heyday of the DC is over and it makes me sad. All things being equal I will take a DC over a more “warmblood” style good moved any day. But they seem to be harder and harder to find.

#20

[QUOTE=beaujolais;8817919]
Full pedigree, if you don’t mind, that is? He is interesting, in a good way![/QUOTE]

He is not registered, as to do so would have cost $1500 and since he would never race seemed silly.

However his dad is Arctic Boy, a Marias Mon son out of an Al Nasr daughter
http://www.pedigreequery.com/arctic+boy

His mom is Proper Mist, a Proper Reality daughter out of a Roberto daughter
http://www.pedigreequery.com/proper+mist

He seems to have lots of famous relatives, but he was in the cull pasture, so for some reason was never trained or raced.

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