Is TPH blog true? Are show dates really sub-leased?

[DMK]

Facilities set the price for stalls for show managers.

Show managers set the price of stalls for competitors.

There is absolutely no reason to expect that the cost is a pass through without any mark up. Additionally, if Show Manager A has 70 days or year booked and typically sells out, that show manager may have negotiated a discount based on volume which could further complicate the comparison between two shows.

Also, cost is tied into more things than just stalls. If a show offers more payout or lower class fees maybe they offset it with higher stall costs. Making a blanket assumption - any assumption - about costs based on different stall costs seems foolhardy unless you know the actual cost of the stall to the show manager. And really you need to know all the costs, staff, insurance, materials, officials, affiliate fees to do an honest comparison. In one show some other expenses might be offset by revenue from a higher stall markup. It could go the other way, stalls are at cost but other fees are higher. It may end up costing the same. One weekend show is the same to the exhibitor if it’s 200 stall+25 office +175 4classes or 150 stall+ (15office+10 EMT) applied each day + 175 4classes is the same end result, and in truth the stall probably cost the manager 40/day, it’s just they weighted the markup costs differently.

[DawgLady]

I’ve said it before, I’ll say it again: it’s simple economics. Businesses will charge what the market will bear, and that includes horse shows. Currently, they’re making money. So what’s the incentive to change? It’s not like they’re strategically thinking about the future (IMO).

[Tackpud]

Remember that a 5 day show has a lot more to clean up than a 3 day show. Labor and equipment doesn’t come cheap.

[Foitin]

Is it a question of demand?

[blondewithchrome]

Yes, fair point. This local show series runs 4 rings Saturday’s and Sundays from dawn til dark so they have quite a few staff and judges - but it is two fewer days of showing. Just a point that the stall fees are not just paying for space alone. If that was the case we’d see lower stall fees and higher office/admin fees. Until there’s anything done differently, the managers have to make the show work financially, and that means we exhibitors have to suck up and pay the $250 or choose not to show.

[vxf111]

@blondewithchrome

Yes, fair point. This local show series runs 4 rings Saturday’s and Sundays from dawn til dark so they have quite a few staff and judges - but it is two fewer days of showing. Just a point that the stall fees are not just paying for space alone. If that was the case we’d see lower stall fees and higher office/admin fees. Until there’s anything done differently, the managers have to make the show work financially, and that means we exhibitors have to suck up and pay the $250 or choose not to show.

Agree. There seems to be a misconception by some posters that the “stall fee” pays only for the 4 walls and shavings within them. It pays for a whole lot more. If it didn’t you’d see a “ring setup” fee and a “renting jumps” fee etc. etc. A lot of different line items are rolled into the “stall fee.” These line items may be different from show to show even if the 4 walls themselves are the same.

[TrophyHusband]

@vxf111

Some posters seem to be a misconception that the “stall fee” pays only for the four walls and shavings within them. It pays for a whole lot more. If it didn’t, you’d see a “ring setup” fee and a “renting jumps” fee, etc., etc. A lot of different line items are rolled into the “stall fee.” These line items may differ from show to show, even if the 4 walls themselves are the same.

Wouldn’t the class/division fees pay for these items, including judges, water/drags, jump rentals, gate workers, etc.?

I think my initial concern with the article is, if genuine, then the policies created and enforced by OUR organization are making it more expensive to show. Yes, inflation plays a role, but one can look at the Kentucky Horse Park show 2021 schedule and see how much more the hunter/jumper people are paying for a week of showing there compared to literally every other discipline, including Eventing.

If we did not have a calendar rule, then dates would not need to be sold. Any willing entrepreneur could put forth a USEF/USHJA rated show and offer the membership another option. I understand the arguments in support of the calendar rule, I just think that time has shown that the arguments against it are better.

It is a natural consequence of the USEF policies that we would see rising prices. Why do we/people put up with this? I think Mr. Roberts is leading the sheep in the right direction by chucking the USEF/USHJA from his best-in-class facilities.

[vxf111]

@TrophyHusband

@vxf111

Some posters seem to be a misconception that the “stall fee” pays only for the four walls and shavings within them. It pays for a whole lot more. If it didn’t, you’d see a “ring setup” fee and a “renting jumps” fee, etc., etc. A lot of different line items are rolled into the “stall fee.” These line items may differ from show to show, even if the 4 walls themselves are the same.

Wouldn’t the class/division fees pay for these items, including judges, water/drags, jump rentals, gate workers, etc.?

I think my initial concern with the article is, if genuine, then the policies created and enforced by OUR organization are making it more expensive to show. Yes, inflation plays a role, but one can look at the Kentucky Horse Park show 2021 schedule and see how much more the hunter/jumper people are paying for a week of showing there compared to literally every other discipline, including Eventing.

If we did not have a calendar rule, then dates would not need to be sold. Any willing entrepreneur could put forth a USEF/USHJA rated show and offer the membership another option. I understand the arguments in support of the calendar rule, I just think that time has shown that the arguments against it are better.

It is a natural consequence of the USEF policies that we would see rising prices. Why do we/people put up with this? I think Mr. Roberts is leading the sheep in the right direction by chucking the USEF/USHJA from his best-in-class facilities.

I think the overhead and labor costs get rolled into BOTH stall fees and show fees, but I suspect a lot of the big overhead labor goes into the stall fee. It’s got to get rolled in somewhere!

As I noted above, it’s really hard to compare disciplines. Eventing relies HEAVILY on volunteers. That helps defray costs.

If we didn’t have a mileage rule, it’s true that no one could “sit” on dates… but unless there are some magical show grounds that could appear out of nowhere, you’d still have competition. There are only so many facilities to go around and the managers still have to compete for them. There are pro/cons to the mileage rule-- maybe it has outlived its usefulness, but it’s not the only reason why there are increased fees for H/J shows as compared to other shows and as compared to “back in the day.” I’m not going to repeat what I posted above but I did delve into this a bit.

[TrophyHusband]

@vxf111

If we didn’t have a mileage rule, it’s true that no one could “sit” on dates… but unless there are some magical show grounds that could appear out of nowhere, you’d still have competition. There are only so many facilities to go around and the managers still have to compete for them.

cough [WEC Ocala] cough

Wouldn’t it be great if entrepreneurs could acquire land and build bigger/better facilities without the worry that the national organization representing the participants in the sport would not attempt to squash them?

[vxf111]

There are a few rare instances where someone up and built a fancy new facility to compete. But that is the exception not the rule. I can think of one, maybe two times I’ve ever seen that happen in my lifetime when it comes to show facilities.

[TrophyHusband]

It may become more common if not for the specter of USEF/USHJA crapping on them for doing so.

This is SOOOO strange!

Very few entrepreneurs have the capital (or the emotional/spiritual energy) necessary to build a business to serve a population and fight the organization who (supposedly) represents that same population. Why would they?

Thank goodness Mr. Roberts has both in sufficient quantity to stand up these elitist authoritarians.

[vxf111]

I doubt it but anything’s possible. In most parts of the country land and space are at a premium and the return on investment is uncertain or poor.

What is so strange?

[Peggy]

@vxf111

I think the overhead and labor costs get rolled into BOTH stall fees and show fees, but I suspect a lot of the big overhead labor goes into the stall fee. It’s got to get rolled in somewhere!

Reasonable point given what shows charge for haul-in fees and even for horses who live permanently at a facility. The show deposit/office/whatever fee must cover some but not all of the overhead and labor (O/L) coats. Some must be folded into entries since there’s often a non-showing horse fee as well. And don’t get me started on the fact that two horses showing on different days can’t share a stall and stall fee without one paying the haul-in fee. I just saw a show that had an extra fee (cleaning?) for people who brought in their own bedding, so those tiny, expensive bags of shavings must be paying some of the O/L as well.

I don’t know if it would be better or worse if more wasn’t rolled into the entry fees themselves.

[yaya]

@Peggy

I don’t know if it would be better or worse if more wasn’t rolled into the entry fees themselves.

Stall fees are usually easier to roll costs into because they are more of a constant than class fees. Most people will get a stall, but the number of classes a person may ride in can vary widely. Trying to guess the average number of classes each person will enter could make the budget projections go way off.

[skydy]

Mileage-Exemption Process Gets An Update

There is a new rule proposal about leasing show dates as well.