For every trainer like this I see an equal number of ammie clients who are not really in a place to do the work needed to make real progress, whether they lack time, talent, skills, fitness, focus, true self knowledge, or cash. Lots of ammies want to feel they are in a “good program” and want the fantasy of “going up the levels” but aren’t going to put the work in.
The number one problem for many ammies hovering around First Level is that they will not or can not or do not ride their horses forward enough to develop the impulsion needed to build other skills. Perhaps it’s hard to post a huge trot let alone sit it, perhaps it actually feels scary and out of control. A correlated problem is that too much emphasis on head carriage to early contributed to a horse being sucked back behind strong contact.
So I think it’s quite easy for any given student/ instructor pair to get into a loop of instructor more or less secretly giving up on an “untalented” horse/rider client pair. And the client not really having anything useful to school on their own, because fundamentals are lacking.
But this is off topic for responding to the original post which seemed to be about the value of BNT high end clinics.
Honestly I always thought the point of getting a table with bottle service for an Anky or a Charlotte clinic full of local pros riding was just a chance to be “closer to the magic” and a social occasion.
well, i actually have ‘only’ 10, with six incoming that i bought sight unseen off the internet. But i hear what you’re saying. so like i said, i’m giving her the benefit of the doubt. What maybe she will find out is that all i have is time and inclination… for me, it’s the journey, not the destination. I find achievement…hollow. Every-time i get ‘there’ i always feel the same sort of deflation ‘now what’. i actually WANT a goal that is longer, more difficult and more challenging. The goal is the process…that’s it. 'm not the only one who thinks this way am i?
Hmmm. While I get continuing to want to improve, it’s not a really good sign if you feel deflated every time you reach a goal. Ideally you should feel pleased and proud but not complacent. Otherwise what is the reward in reaching a goal? If reaching a goal is disappointing then there is the danger we will start to create barriers to reaching goals and make life more difficult for ourselves. I do in fact know people who do this to themselves, multiply the barriers to success so they can always have a reason for things not working out or for being disappointed in themselves. Spreading thmselves too thin or always creating drama.
Also there’s no ultimate final goal you can reach with a horse. Everything is a stepping stone to something else. And then just doing things with a well trained horse is a joy.
More often than I would like, those I encounter who are “horse professionals” are not clued in to what professional means in other careers and that often the horse part itself seems to be more tangential to their skill set than it should be.
I think there are two types of trainers. Those who truly care about your goals (however small and low-budget they might be), and those who want to use you as a part of their resume. The latter can do that by keeping you “dumb” so that you still rely on them. If you never learn how to really ride effectively and train you’re going to keep having to pay for training rides, lessons, commissions on better horses, etc.
I know a fairly BNT came to our area from Chicago and commented on how special and rare it was that all of us AA’s took care of our own horses (just grooming/tacking before and after the ride). She was so complimentary, but all I could think was that SHE was the trainer at this big barn. If she thought these horsemanship skills were important then why wasn’t she teaching them to her students?!
The final issue is that even if you have a trainer who cares about your piddly goals that align with real life, it doesn’t mean that their training or teaching style align with yours. I know I’ve had to try out a few before I found one I clicked well with (and even she’s still not always perfect because no one is). Loyalty is great, but if someone was giving me a mediocre haircut or massage I wouldn’t keep going back.
I can’t answer for anyone else, but I went to a BNT symposium because I wanted to see great instruction. It was a two day affair, and I brought a friend with me. It never dawned on me that I wouldn’t be able to get something. But really the entire thing was geared towards bringing a horse up, not on doing the best you can with the horse you have. First level was introduced as a stepping stone to second, not a destination in itself.
I had a great time with my friend. And met a para rider that has been very successful internationally. But it would have been cool if I had seen riders and horses like me and mine. It was entertaining. But I got more out of Werth’s demo in Omaha than I did that weekend.
I shared this article with a local friend and we are brainstorming how we can start a dressage club for us old farts that just want to ride and become better. We have had this conversation before. But perhaps we can carve out a place that is just dressage, but pulls from a wide variety. We could have rotating hosts. We have a local instructor/rider who is focused on getting on an Olympic team. She could be a possible guest instructor. Or maybe have someone who specializes in ground work be a guest for the next time. And bring in clinicians who want to work with us to become better. We could have one instructor who is our core person. We could do weekly mounted lessons and rotate barns.
Not everyone wants to show necessarily. And not many of us can afford the six figure horses. Okay, none of my friends can. But we love the horses we have. We love dressage. We love to learn. We are a gold mine and we need to start treating ourselves like that .
Sheilah
Their are trainers such as [the good ones] described in this article, but they are very hard to find precisely because they don’t go to shows and don’t advertise. It takes intense investigative work and a whole lot of luck to find them. I very occasionally stumble across one in my travels as a saddle fitter. Unfortunately for all of us, they generally have VERY limited availability because they work full time in another industry. In order to be more available as a trainers they would have to attract enough clientele to make a living and that requires going to shows and having students go to shows. Do you see how this is a catch-22?
So that’s the economic reality. It’s nearly impossible to make a living focusing on AAs without competitive ambition.
As for the criticisms above about how some trainers really don’t know how to teach, well that is the reality of the fact that most people shopping for a trainer look no farther than their show record, and the fact that there are no educational or licensure requirements for riding instructors.Those certification programs that exist are not adequately utilized and respected by the public to grow (and of course the most recognizable of them requires competition). Since improving their teaching skill doesn’t bring in significantly more business, there is no reward for instructors/trainers that pursue more education. Those who do so incur more costs and take time away from the competition that actually does make them more marketable. Again, a catch-22.
Yes, I think this is so true. It’s kind of like going to college lectures but never doing any of the homework or independent study, and expecting to master a subject. The instruction is one leg of the stool, but honestly, if I was an instructor and had a student who didn’t do the work in between on theory, riding and fitness, I might lose some enthusiasm for teaching that person.
I also think that many people become fixated on training with someone who is a “GP rider” or has all their medals, or an FEI competitor or whatever. That is all great if they are also skilled instructors who can address the student and student’s horse’s challenges, but it can also be overkill for someone trying to ride Intro and Training. There are good instructors out there who might be trying to finish out their bronze, or not competing, or whatever, who would provide more value and focus to the TL rider (and be cheaper so you can buy more lessons).
I’m grateful for my current instructor, since she came up riding stock horses, and understands the challenges with my non-warmblood. I augment our sparse lessons (she comes in from out of state) with studying theory, applying exercises to address problems, and videotaping so I can critique myself and work on my seat. I think she can see the effort I’ve put in between each time she sees us, and in turn provides quality instruction that helps me immensely in capturing the correct feeling we should be going for at our current stage of training, with an eye towards moving up the levels, not just perfecting Training or First.
I attended/audited a Charlotte DuJardin symposium a few years ago. I thought I was going to hear her teach and I looked forward to learning from her; that’s why I decided to go. I wasn’t expecting, or even hoping, to be entertained. It never entered my mind. If it was billed as entertainment, I wouldn’t have invested in a ticket.
The next day, I told my trainer that I had gone. He looked at me and asked, “Learn anything ?” He knew the answer before I replied. “Not really,” I said, “She has that great British humor, though.” I guess that was the entertainment.
The horses and riders she “taught” were all very nice. She did very basic instruction (ie. standing behind as the horse moved away and observing that he wasn’t straight). Soon most people in the audience realized that she wasn’t going to help the riders/horses, and to the rider who was a personal friend of hers, she would tease with humor, but the horse never really improved. Honestly I thought it was a waste of the horse’s time.
Meanwhile Isabell Werth’s words at a USDF symposium many years ago in Scottsdale still play in my head: "OUTSIDE REIN, OUTSIDE REIN! " That was certainly not entertainment, and even though I was just a spectator, I remember that instruction to this day.
That old saying “The horse is the mirror of the rider”. If you can’t ride then you can’t get the horse to do the “tricks”. So equitation aka basic riding is the foundation of all dressage. It is not the horse that dances along by some miracle of genetics and breeding but hard work and correct training over many years by a competent rider.
nah. What fun is an easy life? I just love training. i love the conversation. i know that competition is not my happy-place, it just doesn’t make me feel good. There is no joy there for me, Winning, succeeding, achieving…all of that leaves me feeling like: ok, now what do i do next. In dogs, my chosen field, the only joy i get is the actual training. Teaching a dog how to do it. Once the dog knows, i really don’t have much fun anymore. Nice to have a reliable k9 to deploy with, but the wind has gone out of my sails. So i pick up the most challenging dogs i can find to get there with. And unfortunately, i arrive there all too soon. Why i am hoping for a long drawn out process is that the most enjoyment i have IS the process. I think it will be just like the olden days when i was just starting out with dogs…when i had to learn as well as train the first couple of dogs.
i love having a horse that’s so tuned-in that s/he is my lower half.
Bottom line is that if (and this is a big if) we are willing to put the work in than our trainer/instructor/teacher should also be willing to put the work in.
Most of us understand the limitations of our talent, skills, time, and cash. We do the best we can. It is our trainer’s responsibility to help us, including sometimes tempering our expectations but also not giving up on us.
I think that’s the point of Jeremy’s article - trainers aren’t putting the work in to really teach their ammie students who really want to learn.
But there is no such thing as a totally finished horse, really. It just depends what level of training you want to spend your time at.
Among pro trainers some have the knack for colt starting and problem solving. Others prefer to get a project that’s going walk trot canter reliably but still green, and start training for a discipline. Others really excel at polishing more advanced horses. It’s a rare trainer that is absolutely equally skilled at all these things.
If you look at the career arc of top competition horses in dressage or jumping, they tend to hit the high point in their careers in their early teens, continue on for a few years, then step down a bit mid teens, for stamina and health reasons. Until that step down period, the horse is continuing to learn and rider is continuing to school whatever aspects the horse finds less easy. So there continues to be a huge challenge in keeping the horse fit, happy, in figuring out ways to improve his inherent weakness, etc. It’s a different challenge than working with an unbroken colt but not an easier one.
I certainly know trainers who would prefer to spend more time on the subtleties of schooling performance horses but need by circumstances to get the OTTB going w t c for lessons and sales.
As far as showing, I don’t have a lot invested in it. But it sure is interesting as a reality check to get the video and the dressage judge’s comments and look at them over and over multiple times. A really really excellent learning experience.
The trainers who complain about their students (customers!) behind their backs, with all the eye rolling and moaning about how “I’ve told her to do that x00 times!” are being unprofessional. Someone who was genuinely interested in teaching effectively would perhaps ask, “I tell you X a lot, but we are not making much progress,” and have a discussion about it. If the rider can’t FEEL the problem - well, that is another thing to work on, and perhaps the trainer needs to step back and address that. Or perhaps the rider is concerned about doing X because Y might happen - in which case, there can be a discussion about how to handle Y, whatever that is, and then the rider can give X another shot.
Just taking money from someone and simply running through the same motions over and over without caring about the result is pretty crappy. If a pro thinks the rider isn’t paying attention or doing the necessary homework to be successful in their program, they should say so and encourage the customer to go elsewhere to find a better fit.
By the way most of us know we aren’t going to the Olympics and there is nothing wrong with having modest ambitions that are more suited to our talent, time, horses and wallets. If those ambitions don’t match the trainer’s and/or the trainer finds them uninteresting, the trainer can and should politely decline our business; too often the trainer either mentally checks out and goes through the motions OR commandeers the ride and tunes the horse to what the pro wants rather than what the rider is looking for or can enjoy. (The variant on this is the pro who selects/recommends a horse that they want in their barn vs. what would be most fun and suitable for the client, which then has the “added benefit” <eyeroll> of creating the need for more lessons and training.
Of course there are also many truly dedicated trainers who genuinely value and support the riders who work with them. These trainers are worth their weight in gold and should be cherished like the unicorns they are. My former trainer, who sadly returned to Germany, used to say, “you want someone who wants to go on the journey with you,” and that is exactly right.
As for the clinics, I’ve been fortunate to ride with Jeremy a number of times and he’s been hugely helpful with my then-young horses. I appreciated that he was genuinely interested in helping me with basic stuff like baby canter departs. He also gives exercises that were useful for me to take home and practice.
I’ve also ridden with some other “BNTs” on occasion - as a middle aged very amateur adult - and had really good instruction. I rode with Conrad Schumacher last fall and have never worked so freaking hard (or had so much fun) despite being for SURE the lowest level rider at that clinic. It was probably not all that entertaining for the auditors - we were definitely working on quality in the basics, not upper level tricks -but it was awesome, and worth every penny of the rather jaw dropping clinic fee.
The best clinics I’ve ever ridden in or audited work so much on the “basics.” Even for the upper level riders, it’s often helpful to see them work again on the basics. I do think some trainers act like the basics are below them. Which is rediculous.
Right now I’m watching the American Training Program from the USDF. I think from 2011. I haven’t watched it all yet but have watched Jeremy’s session, Scott Hassler’s and Debbie McDonald’s.
Now in hindsight I understand the point of this program. It’s really not for people like me with an average Thoroughbred and being able to lesson a few times a month. As far as I can tell, it was mostly about showing us how they get rider’s and horse’s to the top. Which is fine, although some of it not very useful for the average rider.
Jeremy’s session was the most useful for me. Very much like all his clinics I’ve ridden in or seen him teach. He included position work, how to lunge horses, working with more talented horses, working with more average horses. Just real stuff that I feel I can use. I also like Debbie McDonald’s session so far even though she’s working with more higher level and fancier horses. There is a lot of work on the basics still.
I’m most disappointed so far in Scott Hassler’s session. Now I’ve seen other videos of him teaching and I loved them. But these sessions, even with 4 year olds (which I hoped I would learn stuff since I have a 4 year old) are just not get useful to me. A few tidbits but the young horses are SO fancy and it’s clearly geared to the young horse classes. I understand that was the point, but I still find it to be a bummer that I can’t use much for my average 4 tear old. We are certainly not working on Counter canter yet or half pass!
This is not to say that Scott doesn’t do great with most amateurs. Maybe he does! But the program was definitely geared towards a totally different group of people.
Perhaps more related to Jeremy’s point, I had a very negative trainer who started to act like I was hopeless. She even told me she wanted me to work on higher level stuff, because I certainly didn’t want to work on my transitions in the clinic did I?! Well, yes I did, since that’s what I needed to focus on to improve. And Jeremy gladly helped me. He certainly didn’t act like it was above him. He seemed invested in helping. Funny she was worried I would embarrass her. But her attitude was apparent to many in the clinic and I would say that was the embarrassment.
He told me to lose that trainer and I’ve never been happier and have improved since… . Putting people down constantly doesn’t often help them improve.
It seems that one must look for the trifecta of trainers, in that they:
have a teaching style and personal approach that works for you
possess legitimate skills to correctly bring you to the level of your goal
acknowledge and accept your goals as realistic possibilities for yourself AND your horse
I have met a lot of trainers in my area. I can only think of ONE who checks these three boxes, and she doesn’t need to teach to pay the bills, so she doesn’t. I can think of a handful that check two out of three, and a whole lot that would only check one. Usually when I find someone whose teaching style I like, they don’t have the skill. Find someone who has the skill, and often they turn out to be the condescending, you-are-a-waste-of-my-time type. Nevermind that third box, if they don’t check the first two - a great teacher who embraces your goals won’t mean a hill of beans if they can’t tell the difference between a HP and a LY.
I once rode in a clinic (not a symposium!) with a somewhat BNT. Lots of people love this person, rave about the magic they work, quite popular. Most of the session was negative feedback with almost no actual instruction on correcting any of the issues. At the end I was just glad it was finally over, and I left having learned abso-f-lutely nothing from my public flogging.
I’ve definitely had those clinics too. Where this fairly BNT just keeps telling me the same thing over and over and my poor horse and I go around and around not improving (apparently) because obviously something else needs to be said/done/whatever. That means that that guy may have been great for a lot of people but I wouldn’t waste my time and money to ride with him again.
As I said, no trainer is perfect. Add in the fact that I’m not in a dressage mecca and that makes my pool even smaller. I’m not sure what the answer is there. I really love that my coach is supportive and easy to get along with while making sure I’m not creating holes that will be an issue later. She does not support moving up just because you can do the “tricks”. She doesn’t create reliance on her, but gives me homework for between lessons. But, her experience is more limited than some in bringing tons of horses up the levels simply because she is younger. Will I have to move on from her someday? Maybe.
I think sometimes in order to find that “trifecta” it means you may start with one who is great with younger, greener horses. Or riders who need more fundamentals. Then you may move on to one who is better at refining things at the higher levels. I don’t think there should be anything wrong with this method–but obviously most people pick one person and stick to them like glue.
Yes, and that may just be shorter term goals vs long term, someone that can bring you and your youngster to second level may not be the same one to get you to GP - especially if GP trainers aren’t prevalent nearby. Not every trainer likes to admit their skills have a ceiling, though, or that they may not be the right fit. And then you end up muddling in perpetual drudgery at the same level forever. :lol:
But, all this discussion is with the rider who wants to advance in mind. I think there is also a place for those trainers who don’t mind riders who want to come and work on the same thing week after week, for years, and just enjoy riding in their comfort zone.
This bears repeating. I think that most of us here care enough about riding that we want to see ourselves make improvements throughout life, and it can be hard to understand the perspective of someone who truly just sees riding as a low key hobby. But those people don’t deserve lesser just because they may not have the means or aspirations to move up. Maybe that kind of client isn’t everyone’s cup of tea, but I’ve seen some rhetoric here that is coming dangerously close to suggesting that riders with low aspirations don’t deserve to be with any sort of competent trainer at all.
