[QUOTE=Foxtrot’s;7220383]
…anybody have the perfect title for the novel?[/QUOTE]
A Lick and a Promise
:uhoh: … and that, folks, is why I’m not an author.
[QUOTE=vineyridge;7220411]
If I’m remembering my gardening, vinca is a very common shade ground cover, isn’t it? Not something that is likely to grow in a hayfield.[/QUOTE]
It’s an invasive - it gets everywhere.
[QUOTE=Foxtrot’s;7220383]
…anybody have the perfect title for the novel?[/QUOTE]
A Lick and A Promise; or It’s An Invasive–It Gets Everywhere
To throw my guess on the pile of speculation, because that’s what COTH does best 
(and all anyone can do right now)… I bet it was a weed eaten in pasture that shows up as reserpine in the lab. I’ve heard the UK had a drought this summer, which would mean that there is less good grazing, sending horses looking for other things to eat/eating less palatable things than grass. It also might mean that the periwinkle/vinca type weeds are growing more than grass, depending on their water hardiness.
I suspect then that the chemical was present in the horses and both will be DQd. The FEI rules are not about intent, or physiological effect levels. It is a simple yes/no is it present question and I’m afraid the answer here will probably be yes. Not fair if it was a total accident, but that is the current rules. Same when Courtney King Dye was stripped of her 2008 Olympic scores (and the US of a qualifying team place for the 2012 olympics) because of an illegal substance which isn’t used in the US and not something the US team vets had, which they could provide every possible evidence was given without her, her groom or team vets consent or knowledge, that all kinds of precautions were taken. But they couldn’t prove that someone else exposed the horse to the drug (likely at a Chinese clinic where he had an EKG shortly after arrival), so it was on her. Basically, this is a situation where you have to prove innocence in light of evidence of a drug in a horse you are responsible for.
I sincerely hope fear of contamination/FEI rules doesn’t stop pasture turnout for horses. Eventing is one of the last top horse sports left where a lot of the top athletes still get to be horses in pasture on a regular basis. (yes some in every discipline do, and not all eventers do, but the proportion in eventing is a lot larger than most IME).
Does anyone know how many horses were stopped on course at Burghley for suspected bleeding?
“Periwinkle Blues”
Down here in Florida we have vinca all over the place. It does well in our full sun, and also some shady areas. Reseeds like no tomorrow, may be partially done in if we have a frost.
[QUOTE=beowulf;7219373]
No one has said what you think they have said, but the big difference between the people in EV and HJ? EV isn’t about money. [/QUOTE]
Oh, please. At the upper levels, especially today, with the demise of the long format, money is most certainly a major factor.
I think that the Florida/ tropical Vinca is different from the temperate Vinca. Not sure if they have the same pharmacological profile.
We have Periwinkle (Vinca) growing here that is perennial and survives the worst winters. It looks like the photos of Vinca in the articles I’ve seen. (Thank you, Equibrit!)
The FEI .pdf ‘How Testing Works’ says this about selection for testing:
There are three possible methods for selection of horses for in-competition anti-doping testing :
– testing winners (i.e. winners in major events, medal winners and at least one from each medal winning team) ;
– random testing (i.e. using a method of random selection agreed by the Judge, Veterinary Commission/Delegate and Testing Veterinarian) ;
• spot testing can also be undertaken of specifically selected horses.
• Horses can be tested several times during one event.
Emphasis mine, of course. 
SE England did not have a drought this summer…we had a heatwave in July and plenty of sun, but quite enough rain too. The grass was good. The common native vinca, and garden cultivars , grow well here but don’t invade well kept paddocks. If horses can graze a hedgerow they might eat it, but most UL horses would have inner fencelines preventing that exactly to guard against accidental doses of any substance that might test. My theory is either some badly screened suppliment, or a Dick Francis plot. Either way it’s a tragedy for JP, but he will come back. He’s too good a rider and trainer.
ps, I was at Burghley on XC day (a regular day out)…it was brilliant, all the riders were brilliant, all the horses were brilliant, one of the best I’ve seen. So sad.
I can see the temporary stabling being the cause of the positive test, especially if the 2 horses in question were stabled together.
I’ve had several horses that loved to lick everything in sight, including stall walls/bars…
If they take Burghley off Paget, Andrew Nicholson would be 1st and 2nd.
[QUOTE=Blugal;7220357]
I can’t believe nobody’s mentioned that in Jock Paget’s case, there is real money on the line. Not only the winner’s purse at Burghley, but having won Badminton already, he would be aiming to win the 2nd part of the Rolex Grand Slam challenge at Burghley.
It also shows a potential incentive for sabotage, keep Jock from winning Burghley so that 1) he is out of the running for the Grand Slam, and 2) someone else can start lining up theirs.
All very far-fetched… but we’re writing a novel here people![/QUOTE]
I suppose if we are doing that, someone has to go back and check the cups on the last jump at Badminton, and see if there was some device planted there that caused that rail to fall …
I mean, if you won Badminton, albeit “accidentally”, why in god’s name would you sabotage your attempt at Burghley by drugging your horse? Why would you need to?? Esp with that particular type of drug 
?
This whole thing is really, really sad.
“Its not about the Bucket”
If reserpine stays in the system for so long and can be detected in such minute quantities, I wonder if there is anything to be gained by testing now the horses that were stabled on either side, or maybe even two on either side, of the two Clifton horses at Burghley- is that even legal? (is there a statute of limitations on testing horses in a certain time period after a competition). Are the stalls temp or permananent? Perhaps even swab the stalls to see if any traces can be detected. If any positives, then perhaps there’s something to the trace contamination possibility after all. Is there any way to determine which horses were in the stalls prior to Burghley and test those horses (if legally possible so long after the fact)
All this effort to be done of course assuming that people truly feel that the individuals involved ~really~ wouldn’t have done something like this- either because it would be stupid to do so, or they truly are felt to be upfront, clean competitors.
Just a thought. It would be such a shame for someone who was truly clean to be stripped of a win like this.
I’m sure that if this could be done–and I’ve been wondering the same thing–it would probably have to be on the defendant’s dime and with the voluntary cooperation of the proposed testees–both stall and horse. I doubt very seriously if the FEI would do it or could require it.
You know what they say about crime–always look first at the person who stands to benefit the most–and that would be AN. Not that I would think for more than a passing moment that he would be willing to sabotage a fellow Kiwi and put him out of action for two years.
Yes I’d also like to see this sort of thing done - ie 2 horses stalled nearby test +ve for a banned substance, then look at every horse in that vicinity, check the stalls, hay, feeds etc if no one will offer up their horse (really who would!) …
[QUOTE=vineyridge;7222423]
You know what they say about crime–always look first at the person who stands to benefit the most–and that would be AN. Not that I would think for more than a passing moment that he would be willing to sabotage a fellow Kiwi and put him out of action for two years.[/QUOTE]
That’s more Jilly Cooper than Dick Francis.
AN would also have to give a reserpine treat to Kevin McNab’s horse, and then also conspire to have Clifton Pinot ‘randomly’ tested.
On a more serious note, if the problem really is ‘bucket licking’, then you’d think that Paget and/or McNab would know if this is possible – they’d know if any of the other horses on their yard were on reserpine (or they’d have certainly inquired by now) and they’d probably have heard from their neighbouring Burghley riders that they had a horse at home on reserpine (which is not approved for veterinary use in the UK) and brought one of his buckets to Burghley.
Then there’d be the question of how both horses licked the same bucket.
