Jock Paget's Clifton Promise has tested positive to Reserpine

[EWim15]

[QUOTE=JenEM;7214931]
As Equibrit posted above, the plant that reserpine comes from is Rauwolfia serpentina. [/QUOTE]

Agreed. That’s where reserpine comes from but not where the false positive comes from (because then it wouldn’t be a false positive it would be a true positive but from an inadvertent source if you see what I’m getting at). There has been mention that an herbal supplement or other plants growing in pastures can cause false positives. I’m curious to know what the false positives could be from??

[Xctrygirl]

[QUOTE=RiverBendPol;7214435]
Em, what do you mean by this? Are you thinking a new Dick Francis plot? Because I am. I can’t imaaaagine Jock doing this intentionally. 'Course I don’t KNOW the man, I just happen to think he is a lovely guy who has worked his butt off to get where he is and I would be shocked and horrified, as well as gutted, to see this turn out to be intentional. Sure seems to me some creep with a vendetta slipped Promise a micky.[/QUOTE]

Seriously I am laughing because I did indeed think of a Dick Francis plot. Unlikely as it sounds, with the added info that the drug is and has been banned in the UK, I am at a loss, as I am sure Mr. Paget’s crew is also, as to how it could have ‘environmentally’ or ‘naturally’ made it into his bloodstream. Assistance seems more likely with this added info.

And allow me a moment of crazy… He won both UK 4 stars. Upset the chances for not one but two possible grand slam winners. And he’s young and handsome and riding well on a lovely string of horses. Is it really that hard to believe someone might want him knocked down a peg and be willing to do something stupid? Look at Facebook for daily examples of how stupid humans can be. For me, it’s not a unimaginable leap of thought.

Emily

[NCRider]

[QUOTE=RacetrackReject;7214949]
Isn’t the test for reserpine a relatively new thing? I know it used to be popular in the H/J world because their was no test for it, so is it possible that someone didn’t know it was something that could be tested for now?[/QUOTE]

I could be wrong but I think the test has been available since 2009 so it’s not new. They’d have to be monumentally stupid to think they could get away with it so I’m still witholding judgment.

[beowulf]

I had to laugh at the Dick Francis comments. I used to love his books. Hope that this particular instance is not a “Come to Grief” moment!!

[Blugal]

[QUOTE=Xctrygirl;7214979]

And allow me a moment of crazy… He won both UK 4 stars. Upset the chances for not one but two possible grand slam winners. And he’s young and handsome and riding well on a lovely string of horses. Is it really that hard to believe someone might want him knocked down a peg and be willing to do something stupid? Look at Facebook for daily examples of how stupid humans can be. For me, it’s not a unimaginable leap of thought.

Emily[/QUOTE]

So… get writing. I’d buy that book! :lol:

[Xctrygirl]

Ohhhhh Blu… you crack me up so much. I am currently working on another book… “Why 4 star success does not a professional make”

Coming soon to Amazon.

Emily

[fatappy]

Help me out here… I’ve only heard of reserpine being used during layups as it’s a pretty solid and long lasting tranq.

Is there some other use for it?

I can’t imagine why an eventer would give their horse a tranquilizer (legal or not) before an event. Am I really just missing something?

[SlamDunk]

[QUOTE=fatappy;7215150]
Help me out here… I’ve only heard of reserpine being used during layups as it’s a pretty solid and long lasting tranq.

Is there some other use for it?

I can’t imagine why an eventer would give their horse a tranquilizer (legal or not) before an event. Am I really just missing something?[/QUOTE]

I was going to say maybe someone clipped the horse with some Tranq and did it a little to close to the competition (maybe misjudged the withdrawal time.) which would obviously be stupid, but I’ve heard of similar things happening (My friend an FEI groom had one that absolutely needed to be tranqued to clip and would sometimes find it hard to have enough time between a show to clip so it would maybe be a possibility) but that was when I thought reserpine was a short acting tranquilizer like ace etc.

http://www.wedgewoodpetrx.com/learning-center/professional-monographs/reserpine-for-veterinary-use.html

this link does say the withdrawal times are variable. Unfortunately, this is a very serious offence (its a banned substance not a controlled one), even with a viable explanation to present at the hearing I’d say he’s looking at a lengthy suspension.

[Janet]

[QUOTE=RacetrackReject;7214949]
Isn’t the test for reserpine a relatively new thing? I know it used to be popular in the H/J world because their was no test for it, so is it possible that someone didn’t know it was something that could be tested for now?[/QUOTE]
IRC iIt has been testable (at least in the US) since the mid 70s. A friend of mine was working then in a jumper barn where a horse was found poisitive (believed to be intentional sabotage from a rival, cause she swears HER barn didn’t give it)

[JER]

[QUOTE=NCRider;7214752]
It just doesn’t make sense to me. Why would they use something so detectable with such a long withdrawal period when the likelyhood of getting tested was so high. [/QUOTE]

I have no idea. I was just pointing out (1) a very, very, very, very well-known effect of reserpine and (2) something that happened at Burghley with Paget’s horses.

I don’t know if there’s a connection. That McNab, who is apparently Paget’s mentor, also had a horse test positive might point to a pattern. Or maybe not.

@NCRider;7214985

I could be wrong but I think the test has been available since 2009 so it’s not new.

Go back about ten years to the final gasps of the AHSA and you’ll recall that there were a number of reserpine positives in the h/j world. Among the suspendees were Margie Engle and the Maddens. IIRC – and this should all be online if anyone cares to look it up – the consensus defense was to blame it on a NAF ‘calming’ product called Tempralax. Tempralax contains various herbals like valerian (which would also be verboten) but not sure how reserpine figured into it. I doubt it’s on the label, put it that way.

Reserpine had a history in h/j before then, too. I think it was more in hunters as a calming agent.

The test is not new.

[QUOTE=fatappy;7215150]Help me out here… I’ve only heard of reserpine being used during layups as it’s a pretty solid and long lasting tranq.

Is there some other use for it? [/QUOTE]

As I said, reserpine lowers blood pressure. It has an interesting history in human pharmacology, including some evidence that links it to suicide. But not AFAIK in horses.

Reserpine can usually be obtained from a compounding pharmacy.

[Ghazzu]

[QUOTE=NCRider;7214985]
I could be wrong but I think the test has been available since 2009 so it’s not new. They’d have to be monumentally stupid to think they could get away with it so I’m still witholding judgment.[/QUOTE]

Way earlier than 2009.
They nailed a slew of H/J trainers eons ago.
The outcry was pitiful.
“That’s not fair!! You didn’t tell us there was a test for it!!!”
Even more pitiful was that the then AHSA caved, because so many of these BNTs said they’d take their marbles and go play elsewhere if significant penalties were handed down.

[NCRider]

[QUOTE=JER;7215202]
I have no idea. I was just pointing out (1) a very, very, very, very well-known effect of reserpine and (2) something that happened at Burghley with Paget’s horses.

I don’t know if there’s a connection. That McNab, who is apparently Paget’s mentor, also had a horse test positive might point to a pattern. Or maybe not.

Go back about ten years to the final gasps of the AHSA and you’ll recall that there were a number of reserpine positives in the h/j world. Among the suspendees were Margie Engle and the Maddens. IIRC – and this should all be online if anyone cares to look it up – the consensus defense was to blame it on a NAF ‘calming’ product called Tempralax. Tempralax contains various herbals like valerian (which would also be verboten) but not sure how reserpine figured into it. I doubt it’s on the label, put it that way.

Reserpine had a history in h/j before then, too. I think it was more in hunters as a calming agent.

The test is not new.

As I said, reserpine lowers blood pressure. It has an interesting history in human pharmacology, including some evidence that links it to suicide. But not AFAIK in horses.

Reserpine can usually be obtained from a compounding pharmacy.[/QUOTE]

Jumping back into Dick Francis land, in light of the fact that Jock was pulled up on both horses for minor blood and then allowed to continue, who noticed the blood and notified the GJ? Would the fact that he was on the GJ radar because of the blood have ensured that he was tested or is it completely random? Were the blood specks that caused them to pull him up out of the ordinary for a horse running a four star?

[Napoles]

There are “spotters” around the course at Burghley. One of them noticed it and radioed through.

[Blugal]

Jock Paget vows to clear his name

[Peggy]

Ah, yes, the big Reserpine vacations in HJ-land! This was in the 70’s IIRC. One of the side effects is diarrhea and I’ve been told stories of manure-splashed stall walls at shows. Since then I figure anyone that gets busted for it isn’t paying attention or it’s a false positive of some sort.

The “desired” effect for hunters is that it quiets them. Just like the Mg and whatnot of the current era.

It’s not something I can imagine someone using for clipping or whatnot due to the long time it remains in the system and the fact that there are more effective things that leave the system quickly.

[GotSpots]

[QUOTE=Ghazzu;7215213]
Way earlier than 2009.
They nailed a slew of H/J trainers eons ago.[/QUOTE] Way, way off track, and I may be misremembering, but wasn’t reserpine mentioned as a drug used in H/J world in one of the Jean Doty books from the 1970’s? The Monday Horses maybe?

[JER]

[QUOTE=NCRider;7215234]
Jumping back into Dick Francis land, in light of the fact that Jock was pulled up on both horses for minor blood and then allowed to continue, who noticed the blood and notified the GJ? Would the fact that he was on the GJ radar because of the blood have ensured that he was tested or is it completely random? Were the blood specks that caused them to pull him up out of the ordinary for a horse running a four star?[/QUOTE]

Were the horses known to be bleeders? Had there been any other recent episodes? Would this have made the GJ be – literally – out for blood?

Again, I have no idea. Were there any other horses stopped and held for bleeding that day?

I recall there was a plausible explanation, like ‘he bit his tongue’, for the blood, but I also recall that telling minimizing stories about the origin of blood is not uncommon.

[equinedriver]

[QUOTE=JER;7214661]
Reserpine lowers blood pressure.

Lowering blood pressure in a horse could reduce bleeding.

Clifton Promise was stopped on course at Burghley for suspected bleeding, as was Paget’s other horse.

There’s an explanation for this. Let’s hear it.[/QUOTE]

It was determined with Promise at least that he had bit his tongue.

[pheasantknoll]

Cross contamination can take anywhere along the chain. From a compounding pharmacy that provides a supplement to JP’s horses, to the barn, to the lab that does the testing. It wouldn’t be the first time that lab’s had problems. Anyone remember the FBI lab debacle?

[Highflyer]

[QUOTE=GotSpots;7215309]
Way, way off track, and I may be misremembering, but wasn’t reserpine mentioned as a drug used in H/J world in one of the Jean Doty books from the 1970’s? The Monday Horses maybe?[/QUOTE]

Yup. I LOVED that book as a kid.