Jock Paget's Clifton Promise has tested positive to Reserpine

[bornfreenowexpensive]

[QUOTE=JER;7216898]

1. Because it’s supposed to be about horse welfare. The presence of a prohibited substance is still the presence of a prohibited substance. Maybe it was given for a legitimate reason didn’t clear in time, maybe no one knows how it got there, maybe it’s part of a more widespread doping program.

Also, horses aren’t tested every time out. A ‘minute’ level this week might have been a higher level two or three weeks ago.

2. Lance Armstrong and his doping gang were very practiced in the art of microdosing. This is because there were allowable levels and thresholds for various substances.[/QUOTE]

This is NOT the same thing. Many drugs on the “prohibited” list DO have legit uses in horses. Resurpine is one of them. There is a time and a place where this drug is very helpful for a horse. If you have had to rehab a diffiucult horse, this drug can be a life saver to keep the horse from killing you or hurting themselves.

NO–it is not a drug that should be used to enhance performance…and if there are small levels in a horse…performance would not be changed nor would the horse’s welfare be at stake.

But it absolutely could have legit uses in a barn that could have caused cross contamination. It is NOT a drug you give once to tranq. a horse. It doesn’t work that way. In order for it to be effective, you typically have to give if for a week or more…and there is a cummultive effect. I’ve only known people to use it with horses who are on a LONG stall rest rehab–as in months. You then need to plan on several…as I said, my vet recommends 6 months…that you have not given any before competition.

[JER]

[QUOTE=bornfreenowexpensive;7216945]
This is NOT the same thing. Many drugs on the “prohibited” list DO have legit uses in horses. Resurpine is one of them. There is a time and a place where this drug is very helpful for a horse. If you have had to rehab a diffiucult horse, this drug can be a life saver to keep the horse from killing you or hurting themselves.

NO–it is not a drug that should be used to enhance performance…and if there are small levels in a horse…performance would not be changed nor would the horse’s welfare be at stake.

But it absolutely could have legit uses in a barn that could have caused cross contamination. [/QUOTE]

Please understand that reserpine has more than one effect. While you are familiar with the use of reserpine as a long-term tranquilizer, reserpine’s other function is as a hypotensive, to lower blood pressure.

In humans, the dose for psychiatric use (sedative/tranquilizer) is 10x the dose for hypotensive purposes. In other words, a hypotensive dose is one-tenth of the tranquilizing dose.

I don’t know what the BP dose is in horses or that it’s legitimately used by vets for that purpose. However, it’s quite easy to see how reserpine could be used to prevent bleeding, and that’s probably why it’s been used (and banned) in racing, usually in jurisdictions where Lasix is not allowed.

Cross-contamination does happen. Contaminated supplements also happen – here’s a very recent human case involving multi-vitamins.

But micro-dosing or sub-testing-level dosing is also a possibility.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

[QUOTE=JER;7217064]

I don’t know what the BP dose is in horses or that it’s legitimately used by vets for that purpose. However, it’s quite easy to see how reserpine could be used to prevent bleeding, and that’s probably why it’s been used (and banned) in racing, usually in jurisdictions where Lasix is not allowed.

Cross-contamination does happen. Contaminated supplements also happen – here’s a very recent human case involving multi-vitamins.

But micro-dosing or sub-testing-level dosing is also a possibility.[/QUOTE]

I highly doubt that even at a micro dose it would be effective in reducing bleeding in an event horse running at the 4* level. I’ve used this drug on several horses. It is NOT one that is a super effective sedative (unless on a fairly high dose)…not in a way that would give any performance advantage. And since it DOES test…it isn’t a drug that people would be using to enhance performance.

I’ve been in a LOT of UL barns both in the eventing world and jumper world. THIS is not one of the drugs that is used to enhance performance (whether to stop bleeding or as a sedative)—any more. It WAS used a lot many years ago (mostly just show hunters) but after the test was effective, it fell out of favor. It makes no sense…even if someone was trying to get around the drug rules.

There are a lot of other things that are more common and more effective and less likely to test that people do. That is why people are shocked…besides the fact that this particular rider doesn’t have the reputation (that others do have) for doing this sort of thing at all.

[JER]

[QUOTE=bornfreenowexpensive;7217078]
I highly doubt that even at a micro dose it would be effective in reducing bleeding in an event horse running at the 4* level. [/QUOTE]

You have no factual basis on which to make this statement. As I said earlier, the human dose for lowering BP is very low, as in 0.1 mg, and the tranquilizing dose is ten times greater. The pharmacology is similar in horses, although I haven’t been able to find exact numbers.

You’re continuing to assume that reserpine is always administered as a tranquilizer. I’m not talking about the use of reserpine as a tranquilizer. I’m talking about its use as a hypotensive, to possibly prevent bleeding.

@bornfreenowexpensive;7217078

I’ve been in a LOT of UL barns both in the eventing world and jumper world. THIS is not one of the drugs that is used to enhance performance (whether to stop bleeding or as a sedative). It makes no sense…even if someone was trying to get around the drug rules.

Then why is reserpine used as a performance enhancer? This is a fact, not a conjecture. It’s been used that way in racing – to prevent bleeding when Lasix is not allowed. It’s been used in hunters and jumpers, presumably for its tranquilizing properties. It’s also used in the barrel racing world, according to numerous reports.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

[QUOTE=JER;7217126]

Then why is reserpine used as a performance enhancer? This is a fact, not a conjecture. It’s been used that way in racing – to prevent bleeding when Lasix is not allowed. It’s been used in hunters and jumpers, presumably for its tranquilizing properties. It’s also used in the barrel racing world, according to numerous reports.[/QUOTE]

Yes…it can enhance performance at levels that TEST. You do not see it used in the worlds that compete under FEI rules because everyone KNOWS it tests (and is one of the things typically tested for). There are other drugs and methods that do NOT test as easliy as Resurpine. That’s my point. It is a useful and effective drug but has been banned in OUR sport (and the olympic sports) for a while now…and people know it so do not use it if the intent is to enhance performance.

Not when there are other things out there that are as (if not more effective) and far less likely to test.

[Winding_Down]

With all due respect to those who are saying that JP may be using reserpine as a performance enhancing drug: I think it highly unlikely that an intelligent team would use a drug that tests on horses that are running at the ULs. The risk of being caught is entirely too high.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

[QUOTE=Winding Down;7217145]
With all due respect to those who are saying that JP may be using reserpine as a performance enhancing drug: I think it highly unlikely that an intelligent team would use a drug that tests on horses that are running at the ULs. The risk of being caught is entirely too high.[/QUOTE]

Exactly. Regardless of its BP or other effectiveness it MAY have even at the micro level. This is just NOT one of the things people use because everyone KNOWS it tests at even micro levels. We even think hard about using it when it is appropreiate to use it since it takes SO long to leave their system…even for competing at the USEF level not FEI.

[JER]

[QUOTE=Winding Down;7217145]
I think it highly unlikely that an intelligent team would use a drug that tests on horses that are running at the ULs. The risk of being caught is entirely too high.[/QUOTE]

Here’s a list of FEI drug suspensions from 2011.

You’ll notice that two suspensions out of sixteen total are for reserpine.

Perhaps clearance time on reserpine is more varied than the advised 90 days. Perhaps reserpine is a performance enhancer. Perhaps cross-contamination and sabotage are commonplace.

But I don’t think it’s only the ‘unintelligent’ that have horses test positive for banned substances.

[Janet]

[QUOTE=JER;7217173]
Here’s a list of FEI drug suspensions from 2011.

You’ll notice that two suspensions out of sixteen total are for reserpine. [/QUOTE]
One for Driving. One for Show Jumping.
Not Eventing

[bornfreenowexpensive]

[QUOTE=JER;7217173]
Here’s a list of FEI drug suspensions from 2011.

You’ll notice that two suspensions out of sixteen total are for reserpine.

Perhaps clearance time on reserpine is more varied than the advised 90 days. Perhaps reserpine is a performance enhancer. Perhaps cross-contamination and sabotage are commonplace.

But I don’t think it’s only the ‘unintelligent’ that have horses test positive for banned substances.[/QUOTE]

As I’ve said before…this is a long acting drug that IS used in barns. Cross contamination is a high risk with it. It is useful…but because it stays in their system so long, my vets have said give at least 6 months before competing after using it.

You could buy a horse who had been given it and not know it.

But it is NOT a drug that you see event riders competing at the UL using to enhance performance. NO ONE is saying that it is not a drug used.

[ACMEeventing]

[QUOTE=JER;7216898]

1. Because it’s supposed to be about horse welfare. The presence of a prohibited substance is still the presence of a prohibited substance. Maybe it was given for a legitimate reason didn’t clear in time, maybe no one knows how it got there, maybe it’s part of a more widespread doping program.

Also, horses aren’t tested every time out. A ‘minute’ level this week might have been a higher level two or three weeks ago.

2. Lance Armstrong and his doping gang were very practiced in the art of microdosing. This is because there were allowable levels and thresholds for various substances.[/QUOTE]

Perhaps I’m oversimplifying here, but isn’t the purpose of drug testing to make sure that that horse on that day didn’t have an artificially augmented competitive advantage?

Are we really going to make the argument that today’s minute level might mean a rider cheated two or three weeks ago?

Zero tolerance, in many circumstances, makes zero sense. What it does do, though, is afford TPTB an easy out from using a single lick of rational thinking.

[OverandOnward]

There seems to be an argument here that

“he must have done it, or this test result would not have happened”

vs

“he can’t have done it, because he knows it’s almost 100% certain to invalidate a win”.

Is that the question? Both positions are based on assumptions. Are the assumptions thoroughly valid?

It all seems clear in hindsight, but what people think while they are doing something (or not doing something) can be a bit more cloudy and convoluted at that moment.

It is rare for eventing results to be overturned for cause later … especially for banned substances. I think this makes this news even more of a shock. I don’t know if eventing is truly cleaner or if it is better at hiding the evidence. Which is the reason this is such unusual news?

[bornfreenowexpensive]

[QUOTE=OverandOnward;7217326]
I don’t know if eventing is truly cleaner or if it is better at hiding the evidence. Which is the reason this is such unusual news?[/QUOTE]

Compared to my experience in the horse show world…eventing is a LOT cleaner.

[goodmorning]

An interesting interview:
http://www.radiolivesport.co.nz/Andrew-Nicholson--Frances-Stead/tabid/454/articleID/15955/Default.aspx

[JER]

[QUOTE=Janet;7217202]
One for Driving. One for Show Jumping.
Not Eventing[/QUOTE]

My point was that reserpine still turns up positives, even though it’s well-known as a banned substance in all disciplines.

[JER]

[QUOTE=ACMEeventing;7217232]
Perhaps I’m oversimplifying here, but isn’t the purpose of drug testing to make sure that that horse on that day didn’t have an artificially augmented competitive advantage?[/QUOTE]

This is what the FEI says:

… the ECM [Equine Controlled Medication] Rules have been developed with special consideration for the need to administer responsible controlled medication to Horses to ensure Horse welfare and the highest levels of professionalism.

You can read the FEI Equine Anti-Doping and Controlled Medications Regulations in .pdf here.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

[QUOTE=JER;7217350]
My point was that reserpine still turns up positives, even though it’s well-known as a banned substance in all disciplines.[/QUOTE]

And most of the rest of use are saying that it isn’t isn’t used to enhance performance because it tests.

It can and I’m sure will still test…but highly doubt it would be in a situation were it was intentionally used to enhance performance at THAT competition by people in control of that horse…unless they are really really stupid.

It Is a very effective and useful drug…that is why it is still used. But it is highly unlikely of a drug to be intentionally given to a horse that won Badminton and then was being aimed to run around Burghley by the same connections.

ETA: And regardless of what self serving language the FEI includes–most if not all of their rules have nothing to do with the actual welfare of horses.

[JER]

[QUOTE=bornfreenowexpensive;7217389]
And most of the rest of use are saying that it isn’t isn’t used to enhance performance because it tests.[/QUOTE]

Right. So please explain Sheik Mohammed’s operation to me. Or any of the racing trainers or competitive riders who get set down for banned substances. Or Lance Armstrong or Marion Jones or any of the other people who would ‘never!!!’ use PEDs who used PEDs.

As I said pages earlier, I’m not thinking in terms of ‘guilt’ or ‘innocence’. Reserpine was found in the A sample of Cliftons Promise and Pinot. The B samples will be tested. If those are positive (or if even one is positive), there needs to be an investigation into how reserpine found its way into their blood supplies.

Doping, at whatever level, is one possible reason. So is cross-contamination, sabotage, mis-labeled or contaminated supplements (see my earlier example), an error at a compounding pharmacy (this happened to a swimmer in Australia FWIW), or a failure of the test/testing procedures.

If the horses were given reserpine for a therapeutic reason but it did not clear the system in the advised time, there should be a record of that. However, neither rider has made this claim so we can cross that off the list.

The fact that there are two connected horses with the same positive result should make it easier to narrow down the list of possibilities.

[Equibrit]

Isn’t the internet wonderful; http://horseprerace.com/sedatives/calming-agents/reserpine-injection-20ml-rakelin/

[SlamDunk]

[QUOTE=Equibrit;7217445]
Isn’t the internet wonderful; http://horseprerace.com/sedatives/calming-agents/reserpine-injection-20ml-rakelin/[/QUOTE]

Rakelin was actually found to be the cause of one of the reserpine violations in 2011. However the FEI Tribunal found that the rider was still responsible and sanctioned with a 2 year suspension.

The only one I’ve read so far that didn’t result in sanctions was one where the rider was able to prove sabotage (With criminal proceedings against the person)Otherwise it seems the standard of proving you are not at fault is very high.