Jock Paget's Clifton Promise has tested positive to Reserpine

[QUOTE=vineyridge;7218784]
Suppose JER is right and they might have been using a micro dose to control bleeding during training. Then the horse was taken off the micro dose to allow the drug to clear his system. [/QUOTE]

I want to clarify that I’m not trying to be ‘right’.

I simply put forward a theory of how reserpine might be used in an eventer who bleeds: a small dose to lower BP to help it through the necessary fitness gallops. Then you compete the horse very, very carefully (sparingly), especially when it comes to speed. You stop the reserpine well before the competition, intending to compete the horse with no reserpine in his system.

One could make the argument that such a program for a UL horse who bleeds is a legitimate veterinary use of reserpine. The problem comes in when the reserpine has not cleared in time.

In humans, reserpine is not commonly AFAIK a first-line drug for BP. However, it is used when other treatments haven’t worked, which could also be the case with a horse.

But two horses? I don’t know. I think the poster was onto something when she said the reaction would be much different if these were h/j horses. If 2 of 6 horses tested at Zillion Dollar Hunter Derby were found positive for reserpine, I imagine the reaction on here would be very different indeed.

:slight_smile:

My guess would be that it wasn’t deliberate per se but will end up being some sort of supplement, whether the brown paper bag variety or the kind that’s all respectably binned up in beautiful vinyl buckets.

It’s just hard for me to imagine someone deliberately using reserpine before a 4-star, much more so than the other disciplines. There’s just so much more at stake than a major prize, even if you’re not caught out - the risk of any loss of alertness seems too high. Sad to say, this is life and death, not just for the horse but the rider as well. None of the other disciplines have quite the same relationship with their sport.

That said, it was hard to believe Margie Engle was foolish enough to get a positive test for the stuff too. People sometimes talk themselves into the strangest things. It seems to be among the more popular ways to get set down.

JER, I appreciate your thoughts on this drug. I didn’t know about the anti-bleed effect of it. I get that you’re not trying to sell JP down the river, just throwing out some pharmacological trivial to keep us entertained and informed while we wait for actual information on What The Heck Happened Here.

Are you stating that this is a known use of this drug in this manner or are you merely speculating across species?

[QUOTE=vineyridge;7218784]
Suppose JER is right and they might have been using a micro dose to control bleeding during training. Then the horse was taken off the micro dose to allow the drug to clear his system. But would there be as much information/research on how long it would take a micro dose to clear as there on a sedative dose and they miscalculated? Say it takes 90 days for a 10 mg dose to clear. How long would it take for a 1 mg dose to clear?

If it’s a contaminated supplement that should be fairly easy to run down at the barns.[/QUOTE]

That’s a non-starter, since the connections have stated that they have NO idea how the drug entered the horses system and Mr. Paget says he’s unfamiliar with the drug… I can’t imagine that they are so ignorant as to be unaware that admitting to a mistake in withdrawal times would be preferable to lying outright.

UL horses should be looked after by UL Vets. There should be records of any administration of banned substances…

As an eventing enthusiast, I hope that this will be found to be some horrible mistake. I very much want to think the best of our owners and riders.

However it is up to the PR to prove how the substance entered the horse,for any hope that the PR will receive any leniency with the FEI.
All this does seem very weird, and a bit nauseating, in light of the husband of the President of the FEI’s numerous doping violations not only with the FEI but with British racing (and now with British customs law, Hmmm someone was searching the Sheik’s plane and opening boxes labeled “horse tack”) . http://www.derbybarandgrill.com/railbird/2013/10/sheikh-mohammeds-wife-princess-haya-investigates-illegal-drugs-seized-on-plane/26938
Of course he knows nothing about it AGAIN…

I’m getting rather fed up , really… of course nothing like hearing bad news and hoping for the best, only to be disappointed over and over again to make one feel fed up. :cool:

Sorry, but I am just amused by the eventers that continue to criticize the hunter/jumper world. Grow up and realize that every part of the sport wants to win very badly. They will do what they do. You step up and say that any cross contamination in the H/J world is heinous, but in yours- must have been a mistake. You all make me laugh.

^^^
Doesn’t warrant a response… As no one said what chubby monkey says they said.

<sigh>

[QUOTE=JER;7217173]
Here’s a list of FEI drug suspensions from 2011.[/QUOTE]

When I look at the lists for 2011 and other years, what strikes me is how many of those are substances I use, and my friends use, and people here on COTH use and openly talk about. Who hasn’t used or doesn’t know someone who has used Bute or Surpass or Dexamethasone? One suspension was for Triamcinolone Acetonide, which is the ingredient in Panalog, a topical I just used for a spider bite. I am not condoning cheating - or speculating as to whether Jock did or did not - but I think if I were showing at the FEI level I would have to hire someone just to keep track of the prohibited substances for me, both the drugs and clearance time. The human list is much clearer and less Draconian.

Two years ago I wouldn’t have agreed with meupatdoes’ post, but I’ve come to the conclusion that this is getting to be nonsense. I don’t think it’s feasible to draft and enforce regulations with “intent based culpability,” but it is possible to raise the acceptable levels (and or allow some currently prohibited substances) while still following a strict-liability “zero tolerance” policy for violations.

That’s my two cents. Everything else is speculation.

[QUOTE=Equibrit;7217445]
Isn’t the internet wonderful; http://horseprerace.com/sedatives/calming-agents/reserpine-injection-20ml-rakelin/[/QUOTE]

A bit of a non sequitur perhaps, but I’m struck that there are people on COTH who order from this place. They don’t even require a prescription for Reserpine or anything else apparently.

I’ve used it, Periwinkle can also cause a false positive…and some history

FWIW I have used Reserpine on one horse who was on stall rest and started to lose his mind. He kicked out the back window of a car (while we were “hand grazing”) before I decided to give it to him.

Until yesterday it was still in my med box, however. Beside a lot of the other drugs that get used on a much more frequent basis.

from: http://barrelhorsenews.com/articles/horse-health/3795-altered-states

Reserpine

Reserpine is one of the world’s oldest tranquilizers. Made from the climbing vine Rauwolfia serpentina native to India, it was known in ancient Hindu writings as the “insanity herb” and was used to treat high blood pressure, insomnia, and of course, insanity. Its ability to lower blood pressure made it valuable as a treatment for snakebites, and a particularly handy drug in a land populated by some of the world’s most deadly vipers. Mahatma Gandhi was said to have used reserpine as a tranquilizer, and ancient texts have Alexander the Great using it to treat his general Ptolemy, who had fallen in battle to a poison arrow.

The “Indian Snakeroot” made its way into modern medicine prior to World War II, when two Indian doctors first reported of its antipsychotic properties in a Western medical journal.

“Reserpine and acepromazine were introduced into Western medicine at about the same time,” notes Tobin, who did his PhD in pharmacology under the direction of Amar Sen, whose father was one of the introductory Indian doctors. “Reserpine was so long-lasting that they were overdosing patients. Its effects are relatively quite long lasting; the effect of a single dose can last up to maybe 30 days, but they would dose the drug daily. Psychiatrists then found that their patients were getting depressed and committing suicide, and they concluded that reserpine was unmasking latent suicidal tendencies, which was somewhat unlikely; much more likely was that it was simply an overdose situation.”

Today it’s rarely used as a human antipsychotic, but is still used to manage high blood pressure when other medicines have failed.

Although not FDA approved for use in horses, reserpine was once considered a possible treatment for fescue toxicity that causes gestational problems and abortion in mares, but its principal use in equine medicine today is to take the edge off excitable or difficult to manage horses.

“It’s a very subtle, long-acting tranquilizer,” says Tobin. “It’s a relatively potent drug. It’s also very difficult to detect. When we started this business [of drug detection] 30 years ago, we couldn’t detect a couple of milligrams of a substance like reserpine. On the other hand, one needs to keep in mind that testing is now about 1 million times more sensitive than when I started in this business 35 years ago, and nowadays virtually all drugs and medications are readily detectable, and some for quite long periods post-administration.”

Although highly detectable by today’s drug tests, a positive result can be complicated by the presence of trace amounts of similar substances from native plants, like periwinkles, that are found in some areas of the United States, particularly in the Southeast.

Today’s drug tests are very sensitive and can detect very trace amounts of forbidden substances. For instance, a common plant, like periwinkles, can cause a horse to test positive for reserpine.
Today’s drug tests are very sensitive and can detect very trace amounts of forbidden substances. For instance, a common plant, like periwinkles, can cause a horse to test positive for reserpine.

Like other tranquilizers, reserpine is highly dose dependent.

“You can take the edge off a horse for up to two weeks with small doses of reserpine, if you’ve got the right horse and the right dose,” says Tobin. “The first day the horse may be a little depressed, have a little diarrhea or flatulence, but after two days or so, he’s normal to visual inspection, but if you know the behavior of the horse well, and especially if you know him to be excitable and difficult to manage, you will know he’s tranquilized.”

The use of reserpine in this manner is largely unstudied, but anecdotal evidence suggests that the drug may, in very rare instances, cause penile prolapse in male horses, thus making penile paralysis a possible side effect. Other possible side effects include violent colic, diarrhea and sweating over the back and hindquarters.

The reactions to reserpine can be variable among horses. Warns Tobin, “You need to know how to use it and it also helps to know your horse.”

Read more: http://barrelhorsenews.com/articles/horse-health/3795-altered-states#ixzz2hylNHIwn

I have noticed many more horses on videos that bang their legs on fences going over than I used to see on much older videos.

:uhoh:

My Cob has eaten every Periwinkle plant on my place that he can reach.

None of my other horses would touch the stuff.

Except, JER, that Lasix is WAY better for bleeding and lots easier to give and use, readily available, and clears the system much better and quicker. I wouldn’t give Reserpine to a known bleeder, it’s way better as a tranquilizer in my experience.

This “contamination” problem is real. And the problem is not the zero tolerance, it’s that zero tolerance is equated to (suck in the breath) “doping” which is so far from the truth that the real crime is the media’s complete lack of perspective about it.

I like to eat at Panera and ask for the apple for the side instead of the chips. I take the apple home and feed it to my pasture horse and don’t get it anywhere near the racehorse, because I know a kitchen helper at minimum wage could certainly be touching it and could have had a little of the wacky weed for lunch (or worse). (Yeah and we eat it too.)

I know I am bringing a box of disposable gloves to the FHI warmup and discontinuing the carrots for the horses. Not worth being accused of something. I will also make a point to remind my volunteer helpers NOT to touch competing horses unless its an emergency, and if we have to, to use the gloves.

[QUOTE=BaroquePony;7218987]
My Cob has eaten every Periwinkle plant on my place that he can reach.

None of my other horses would touch the stuff.[/QUOTE]

Totally OT, but some horses will choose to eat a particular weed when they aren’t feeling well.

Mare grew up in a fairly weedy pasture, and there was one patch of some kind of weed that the horses would only eat when they had a bellyache. There was another weed sought out by mares who were fairly close to foaling. They’re pretty smart!

lasix is much easier…and I still wonder if ace would be better than reserpine for both bleeding & sedation purposes, surely it doesn’t have that bare-minimum 3mo wd time. A smidge of Ace has been given to plenty of hunt-horses…but Reserpine?! I just can’t see why someone would bother, there are better drugs out there, if you are using them for an advantage.

Fwiw, I’ve mainly seen it used in its injectable form with a bottle of pills virtually untouched. Why? Because it’s such a PITA & not worth the hassle for any horse in the barn going to any USEF show…it’s so easy for a tablet or powder to leave residue of a bucket or feed tub…

yes, if Reed Kessler was found w/it, I’d be thinking cross-contamination or a supplement because there is no use for it due to the headache of a withdrawal time. But then again, look at all the UAE/HUN drug set-downs on the FEI list - wtf were they thinking? Probably those ‘designer drugs’ or ‘designer drug schemes’ that I’ve heard mumbled about…for instance, I know that lasix has been used to clear out the system, not just bleeding. I heard an eventing trainer say there’s no way to test for ace if you ‘mix it up a bit.’ So clearly, this attitude exists.

Also - it’d be easier to move on from if he said yes, another horse in the barn was on it, likely a cross contamination issue vs. I have no clue etc etc.

I also think its unlikely it was used to decrease BP. There are better/easier drugs for that purpose (ie Lasix)

I admit to not having read all 8 pages.
That said–what does everyone think of Kevin McNab’s horse having the same positive at the same event?

I haven’t seen any interviews with him–are there any?

Just wondering idly.

I consider both riders innocent until proven guilty.

[QUOTE=chunky munky;7218864]
Sorry, but I am just amused by the eventers that continue to criticize the hunter/jumper world. Grow up and realize that every part of the sport wants to win very badly. They will do what they do. You step up and say that any cross contamination in the H/J world is heinous, but in yours- must have been a mistake. You all make me laugh.[/QUOTE]

No one has said what you think they have said, but the big difference between the people in EV and HJ? EV isn’t about money. The only stake at risk is your life or your horse’s. The HJ world has many motivators for cheating, money being the biggest one. There are flaws in both sport, no one is denying that. Instead of hijacking with your negative feelings of persecution, why don’t you sit out or learn more about the sport you’re so eager to put down.

[QUOTE=beowulf;7219373]
No one has said what you think they have said, but the big difference between the people in EV and HJ? EV isn’t about money. The only stake at risk is your life or your horse’s. The HJ world has many motivators for cheating, money being the biggest one. There are flaws in both sport, no one is denying that. Instead of hijacking with your negative feelings of persecution, why don’t you sit out or learn more about the sport you’re so eager to put down.[/QUOTE]

I beg to differ.

Upper level evemnting is very much “about the money”. It costs a LOT to keep a horse competing at the upper levels, and the money has to come form somewhere. There are plenty of “motivations for cheating” in upper level eventing.

IMHO, the biggest difference between H/J and Eventing (and it gets smaller every year) is
The ratio of people who want to win to horses capable of winning.

This drives the law of supply and demand.

The more people who want to “play the game”,
The harder it is to win
The more money people are prepared to pay for a horse that is a proven winner
The more things people are prepared to do (legal as well as not) to keep a “winner” winning.

These problems are more visible in H/J, because there are more people in H/J , compared to the prizes to win.

The more Eventing grows, the more these problems become Eventing problems.

Why have we gotten off on a tangent about reserpine being used to help the horse’s supposed bleeding problem? All reports were that the horse had bitten his tongue on course, and after he was stopped and that was determined to be the issue, he was allowed to continue.