Probably because it was quite an unusual situation that both of Jock’s horses were stopped on xc because of blood being spotted and then allowed to continue.
One bit his tongue and I think the other just blew a blood vessel in his nose.
So, yes there WAS blood and it WAS very coincidental that they were both stopped for it, but I don’t think Reserpine as a drug to prevent bleeds is all that relevant considering they weren’t exactly symptoms of a known “bleeder”.
[QUOTE=goodmorning;7219122]
…and I still wonder if ace would be better than reserpine for both bleeding & sedation purposes, surely it doesn’t have that bare-minimum 3mo wd time. [/QUOTE]
Reserpine probably would be a better choice if you wanted to sedate and then ride the horse. As it was explained to me by my vet when my horse went on it to help control shenanigans when going back on small paddock turnout after being on stall rest for months, ace effects coordination in a way that reserpine does not. Reserpine calms the mind (I am so paraphrasing what he said right now) without affecting them physically while ace affects both.
Chunky munky- read for comprehension. No one is skeptical of intentional doping because gasp it is an eventer. They (including myself) are skeptical because, if you were going to dope with the intent of enhancing performance at a 4 star event, this is not the drug you would choose both because there are way better drugs for the potential “enhacing” effects and it is 100% certain to test (and since the winner is always tested and JP was definitely going for the 2nd leg of the grand slam here, if things went the way he hoped, he would definitely be tested- if he had no hope of winning, it would be a bit different). There is no upside to JP using reserpine intentionally here and unless he (or whoever did it at his barn) is colossally stupid, this was not an intentional performance enhancing administration of the drug. Of course, colossal stupidity is always a possibility
Rauwolfia serpentina (Indian snakeroot) is a member of the Apocynaceae (Dog Bane) family. There are two species native to temperate Europe; Vinca (Apocynoideae) and Vincetoxicum (Asclepiadoideae). The former contains Vincamine, the latter Vinpocetine. I think either could be ingested by a horse without the owner being aware of it.
Vincamine
Vincamine (Ph.F)
Vincamine is a plant alkaloid first extracted in industrial quantities in 1955 by a team of scientists investigating on agents with vasoactive properties. They found that agents with indolic skeleton selectively improve the cerebral blood supply and introduced their use in the treatment of cerebrovascular disorders [1].
The increasing percentage of elderly individuals suffering from age-associated cognitive impairment and the lack of effective medical treatment have become a major health concern due to the large number of individuals experiencing dementia. Eighty percent of elderly individuals in North American and European populations show signs of cerebrovascular disease and mixed vascular cognitive impairment with a risk of regression to Alzheimer disease and dementia.
Many conditions of cognitive decline share common causative or contributory factors. The principal causes of a progressive decline in brain function are decreased cerebral blood flow, insufficient cerebral circulation, and a reduction in cerebral metabolism and oxygen utilization. Vincamine was the first natural ingredient found to be effective in retarding the effects of the multiple mechanisms and factors responsible for cognitive decline.
Vinpocetine
Vinpocetine (EP)
Cognitive function loss has become a major health concern due to the large number of individuals experiencing dementia, memory loss and other such difficulties, and also due to the lack of effective medical treatment. It is often passed off as a natural part of aging, but the use of nutritional supplements and botanical substances has been found to enhance cognitive function and, very importantly, to help reverse and prevent cognitive dysfunction. Vinpocetine is a peripheral vasolidator that increases cerebral blood flow [1], activates cerebral metabolism [2] with neuroprotective effects and supports brain functions such as concentration and memory. Furthermore it has been identified as a strong anti-inflammatory agent, more recently it has been considered for its potential role in the treatment of Parkinson’s disease
[QUOTE=Janet;7219462]
I beg to differ.
Upper level evemnting is very much “about the money”. It costs a LOT to keep a horse competing at the upper levels, and the money has to come form somewhere. There are plenty of “motivations for cheating” in upper level eventing.
IMHO, the biggest difference between H/J and Eventing (and it gets smaller every year) is
The ratio of people who want to win to horses capable of winning.
This drives the law of supply and demand.
The more people who want to “play the game”,
The harder it is to win
The more money people are prepared to pay for a horse that is a proven winner
The more things people are prepared to do (legal as well as not) to keep a “winner” winning.
These problems are more visible in H/J, because there are more people in H/J , compared to the prizes to win.
The more Eventing grows, the more these problems become Eventing problems.[/QUOTE]
I will agree with you that the costs to keep an UL horse campaigning is extremely expensive and beyond most/average people’s means. However, having spent a time in both sports, having been involved with UL contenders of both sports, it’s my experience that the EV world does not share the same mindset about “winning the money” as the HJ world does. EV has never been about the money. Unlike in HJ, there are no $10,000, $15,000, $30,000 purses for winning classes in EV. That was simply my point.
[QUOTE=beowulf;7219513]
Unlike in HJ, there are no $10,000, $15,000, $30,000 purses for winning classes in EV. That was simply my point.[/QUOTE]
Just picking one at random (happened to have the omnibus listing open to respond to a differnet thread) the prize money at the Galway Downs CCI*** is $21,000.
According to FEI rules, the minimum (total) prize money for a CCI*** is 100,000 Euros, of which the winner “no more than” a third. I think that, at Rolex, the winner’s share is $80,000.
I can’t find the minimums for other levels, but I know they are there.
There may not be AS MANY Eventing competitions with “$10,000, $15,000, $30,000 purses” as in H/J, but it is incorrect to say " there are no $10,000, $15,000, $30,000 purses for winning classes in EV"
[QUOTE=Janet;7219790]
Just picking one at random (happened to have the omnibus listing open to respond to a differnet thread) the prize money at the Galway Downs CCI*** is $21,000.
According to FEI rules, the minimum (total) prize money for a CCI*** is 100,000 Euros, of which the winner “no more than” a third. I think that, at Rolex, the winner’s share is $80,000.
I can’t find the minimums for other levels, but I know they are there.
There may not be AS MANY Eventing competitions with “$10,000, $15,000, $30,000 purses” as in H/J, but it is incorrect to say " there are no $10,000, $15,000, $30,000 purses for winning classes in EV"[/QUOTE]
I think the point is that with every zero you add to available prize money, the incentive to cheat increases exponentially. There are 6eventing competitions in the world where the winner in eventing can bring home real money. And even then, the purse is something that jumper riders would laugh at.
Take that prize and add a zero-how many grand prix offer close to $1M in prize money. How many big money hunter derbys are there every year? It’s not that eventers are more noble or less naturally inclined to cheat-it’s that there’s historically not been as much of an incentive. That’s all changing with the hunterizating of the eventing industry.
[QUOTE=bambam;7219500]
Reserpine probably would be a better choice if you wanted to sedate and then ride the horse. As it was explained to me by my vet when my horse went on it to help control shenanigans when going back on small paddock turnout after being on stall rest for months, ace effects coordination in a way that reserpine does not. Reserpine calms the mind (I am so paraphrasing what he said right now) without affecting them physically while ace affects both.[/QUOTE]
Having seen ace & R used - generally need a solid dose of ace to impair coordination. Rehab horse on ace - maybe blows through it but IME won’t fall on its face, a bit dull but that’s the whole point. Same rehab horse on Reserpine - reared & flipped on rider w/O cause. How it alters the mind is worrisome…YMMV but it’s really not worth it for riding. I personally would not go there for riding…
Some hunt horses get around fine on ace…that’s not an easy job
[QUOTE=Equibrit;7219501]
Rauwolfia serpentina (Indian snakeroot) is a member of the Apocynaceae (Dog Bane) family. There are two species native to temperate Europe; Vinca (Apocynoideae) and Vincetoxicum (Asclepiadoideae). The former contains Vincamine, the latter Vinpocetine. I think either could be ingested by a horse without the owner being aware of it.
Vincamine …
Vinpocetine[/QUOTE]
Equibrit, what was the source for this info? Not looking to argue, just to read up some more.
Thank you!
I haven’t seen this info (or maybe I missed it): Are the two horses stabled at the same place? I’m wondering since there are two riders.
[QUOTE=NCRider;7219884]
I think the point is that with every zero you add to available prize money, the incentive to cheat increases exponentially. There are 6eventing competitions in the world where the winner in eventing can bring home real money. And even then, the purse is something that jumper riders would laugh at.
Take that prize and add a zero-how many grand prix offer close to $1M in prize money. How many big money hunter derbys are there every year? It’s not that eventers are more noble or less naturally inclined to cheat-it’s that there’s historically not been as much of an incentive. That’s all changing with the hunterizating of the eventing industry.[/QUOTE]
I agree with that.
[QUOTE=frugalannie;7219992]
Equibrit, what was the source for this info? Not looking to argue, just to read up some more.
Thank you![/QUOTE]
http://apocynaceae.blogspot.com/
http://www.linnea-worldwide.com/vincamine.html
[QUOTE=FatDinah;7220112]
I haven’t seen this info (or maybe I missed it): Are the two horses stabled at the same place? I’m wondering since there are two riders.[/QUOTE]
Apparently they were stabled next to each other at Burghley. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/10379298/Jock-Paget-suspended-after-Burghley-winning-horse-Clifton-Promise-tests-positive-for-banned-substance.html
“New Zealander Paget’s horse, Clifton Promise, who also won Badminton this year, and Clifton Pinot, 14th at Burghley under McNab, who is Australian, are both from the team owned by Frances Stead, and were housed in adjacent boxes in Burghley’s temporary stables.”
Total longshot, but I guess it’s possible there may have been oral reserpine on some surface of the stabling that both horses may have ingested? If the stalls are temporary and rented by facility after facility would it be possible/feasible/practical to try to find the stalls and somehow test the surfaces?
This is really turning into Dick Francis page turner now!
[QUOTE=clivers;7220304]
“New Zealander Paget’s horse, Clifton Promise, who also won Badminton this year, and Clifton Pinot, 14th at Burghley under McNab, who is Australian, are both from the team owned by Frances Stead, and were housed in adjacent boxes in Burghley’s temporary stables.”
Total longshot, but I guess it’s possible there may have been oral reserpine on some surface of the stabling that both horses may have ingested? If the stalls are temporary and rented by facility after facility would it be possible/feasible/practical to try to find the stalls and somehow test the surfaces?
This is really turning into Dick Francis page turner now![/QUOTE]
uh oh…
Are they permanent stalls at Burghley? And are they used by resident horses when the event isn’t running? Does make you wonder if those 2 horses were stalled next to each other that maybe it was environmental contamination…
I can’t believe nobody’s mentioned that in Jock Paget’s case, there is real money on the line. Not only the winner’s purse at Burghley, but having won Badminton already, he would be aiming to win the 2nd part of the Rolex Grand Slam challenge at Burghley.
It also shows a potential incentive for sabotage, keep Jock from winning Burghley so that 1) he is out of the running for the Grand Slam, and 2) someone else can start lining up theirs.
All very far-fetched… but we’re writing a novel here people!
[QUOTE=Blugal;7220357]
I can’t believe nobody’s mentioned that in Jock Paget’s case, there is real money on the line. Not only the winner’s purse at Burghley, but having won Badminton already, he would be aiming to win the 2nd part of the Rolex Grand Slam challenge at Burghley.
It also shows a potential incentive for sabotage, keep Jock from winning Burghley so that 1) he is out of the running for the Grand Slam, and 2) someone else can start lining up theirs.
All very far-fetched… but we’re writing a novel here people![/QUOTE]
The thing that keeps tripping me up when I start considering the fact that in this case, there is big money on the line/additional incentive, is the fact that the only way the big money exists is if he wins, and he knows if he wins, he gets tested, and that doesn’t seem to be a drug you can get past the testers, so it just doesn’t make sense. Also, the positive test for McNabb’s horse doesn’t make sense.
If we’re going for bizarre plots, my preference would be on an FEI/Haya conspiracy against eventing.
…anybody have the perfect title for the novel?
If I’m remembering my gardening, vinca is a very common shade ground cover, isn’t it? Not something that is likely to grow in a hayfield.
[QUOTE=Eventer13;7220345]
Are they permanent stalls at Burghley? …[/QUOTE]
There were definitely temporary stalls at Burghley in 2009 (and the Telegraph article uses the words “temporary stabling” describing where JP’s and NG’s horses were stabled this year)
…making looking for environmental contaminants much more challenging as there is a good chance the stalls were disassembled and transported weeks ago 
Finally, it’s possible that the stall surfaces may have become contaminated with Reserpine weeks or months prior to Burghley if they are rented (from another show or individual renting the stalls presumably).
ETA you can see pics of the temp stall here: http://www.horsejunkiesunited.com/?p=11492
