Joining the hip pain club

Hadler is only ONE of a growing number of medics who’ve had a bellyful of “authority-based” medicine aka BS and have actually taken a look at the meta-analyses. Too often, much is being promised and little delivered. Read this thread from the top and it confirms 100% of what he (and I) said. Damn few of you have seen any relief from all this torture. Though I guess that’s irrelevant in True Believer Land.

“Evidence-Based Medicine” is the future, and thankfully so. Your mileage obviously differs, but before I submit to ANY procedure, not to mention its associated wealth transfer, I want to see EVIDENCE that it will do me more benefit than harm. The FACT is that spine and hip surgeries with the exception of THR have up to now failed that test resoundingly. Which I realize isn’t what any of you want to hear.

For those who sneer at “popular” authors, I’d challenge anyone with less than a grad-school education to make it through any of Hadler’s books. He also cites his primary sources in Notes sections that take up half of each book, so I won’t cave to intellectual snobbery on this point, either. Shoot the messenger if you will, and knock yourself out being mutilated by these people who are doing things KNOWN to be ineffective for pure profit.

It’s also true we expect a lot more of our bodies nowadays; if you’re a candidate for a THR at all, probably “mountain biking” or running is something you should give up, at least until you get it. That would be . . . common sense?

We’ve all been sold the notion (called “healthism”) that if we can only obsess enough, be “good” enough, and transfer WEALTH enough into the medical/pharmaceutical industry, we’re never gonna get old, or lame, or tired, or fat, or DIE. Well, blame the 60’s youth culture.

Just remember, screwups by doctors/hospitals kill more people EVERY YEAR than died in the Vietnam War. Dunno 'bout you, but that gives ME a half-halt! :winkgrin:

[QUOTE=Lady Eboshi;8306860]
Which I realize isn’t what any of you want to hear.[/QUOTE]

Can’t … resist … feeding … troll …

LE, your willingness to make assumptions about people’s beliefs, desires, ways of riding, etc. is astounding. You only paint yourself as a supercilious troglodyte when you constantly insinuate that those of us trying to have a discussion about our personal experiences with a particular suite of joint problems and treatments are essentially lemmings.

I don’t think anyone here wants to drink your Kool-Aid, no matter how hard you shill for it. Your insistence that we should all embrace a largely political perspective on medical care in lieu of availing ourselves of the diagnostic and treatment options available to better understand and potentially ameliorate our own unique, individual pain issues is frankly absurd. I imagine you’re going to continue haunting this thread, hoping for some of us to have bad outcomes so you can claim some sort of last laugh, but I hope the redundant walls of text can be kept to a minimum going forward.

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Not trolling, not expecting anyone to “drink my Kool-Aid.” Just providing a counterpoint to the prevailing default that most people never question. And actually, I’m very interested in reading all of your (unfortunately grim) experiences because as of right now they’ve all pretty much confirmed my bias.

If I appear supercilious, please accept my apology. When posting, I always take into account the “lurkers,” who generally outnumber the posters on most threads about 40 to 1. It may well be that someone else out there has got low back, SI, or hip pain and is operating with a high deductible like my $6K.

A little evidence-based research is a very good idea before one blows the whole winter’s hay money out of one’s own pocket.

My SI/hip hurts, too–as the natural outcome of aging and our modern life of athletic excess. It’s damned annoying, some days restricting, but I’ve made an informed choice to accept the natural healing curve over some of the marketplace’s offerings proven to have a scant chance of advantaging my soundness.

You will do what you want, and I sincerely hope you have success. I am most certainly NOT “hoping for some of you to have bad outcomes.” That is a completely unfair and mean-spirited statement, just because some of the research posted has the potential to poke a pinhole leak in some people’s belief systems. I posted because I suspect there are riders out there who will value the information, and that is all.

My experience was not easy but it was well worth it. Even knowing how it would go, I would do it again tomorrow and not think twice. Life was barely worth living before, the pain was incomprehensible. It is so much better now it is mind boggling.

[QUOTE=x-halt-salute;8306701]
This Hadler guy has written a number of books, all of which seem to push an “everyone is relying too heavily on medical interventions” agenda. Am I going to trust the rheumatologist who’s never seen my chart who seems to be a M.D. spokesperson for a political healthcare reform movement? Or am I going to put more stock in the orthopedist who’s been involved in my diagnosis from the beginning and has published peer reviewed literature on the very procedure I am considering? Not a hard decision.[/QUOTE]

What Hadler is actually saying is that his profession is offering too many snake-oil options and that patients should challenge their physicians to offer them effective, not hopeful, treatments. He’s no pop author – he’s the product of the medical establishment – Harvard, Yale, the NIH, long career at UNC – and he’s making great use of his life’s experience and emeritus status to criticize the problems in contemporary healthcare. His conclusions don’t matter as much as his questions.

But, more to the point – at least a rheumatologist understands what happens when you inject a joint. Ortho’s care about short term pain relief and mobility gains. They’re mechanics. The worst rheumatologist – forget Hadler! – could describe in detail how steroid injections degrade joints. Period. They do not heal anything, ever – the best outcome is a slowing of the symptoms. At worst, they speed it up. So, I’d trust the medicine-doc over the surgeon-doc on this one, any day. Ortho’s who do injectables and call it healing are blowing smoke – the honest description would be ‘buying you time before x, y,z surgery, and hoping to reduce your use of painkillers.’

I appreciate you sharing your symptoms & treatments, but I also appreciate Lady E’s contributions here. She can be a little excitable, but she’s hardly a troll, and her point of view is an important counterpoint to trusting the first diagnosis and treatment plan you’re offered.

I hope this thread helps people. Orthopedic pain is a huge problem – it drives opiate addictions, underlies late-in-life obesity/diabetes/cardiovascular problems because it stops people from moving. There are way too many crappy options for care for backs & joints. They can replace 'em, but the repair/heal options are super murky. Ask tons of questions. Double check your bone doc recommendations with your GP, or hell, your OB/GYN.

[QUOTE=Frog Pond;8308510]
Ask tons of questions. Double check your bone doc recommendations with your GP, or hell, your OB/GYN.[/QUOTE]

You and Lady E are missing the point. Most of us engaged in the core of the conversation are – without your involvement – already asking all the questions, thinking critically about the options, seeking second opinions from a variety of sources, and aren’t simply mindlessly following “authority” in medicine, whether that authority rests with our own M.D.s or celeb docs like Hadler. If you read carefully, you’ll see that nobody here thinks that injections are the ultimate solution for degenerative hip problems, nobody is advocating surgery without careful consideration of whether non-surgical options are reasonable, nobody is blindly following the first recommendation they get from a doc. The problem with Lady E’s participation in this thread, and yours, is that you two are assuming that the rest of us don’t understand the medical decisions we are making, are naive w.r.t. the healthcare industry, and are not able to advocate for ourselves. This is not only wrong, it is insulting. If you care to get involved, ask questions before you make assumptions, and spare us the lame lectures.

I don’t owe any explanations to you, but maybe you and LE will back off if you consider the following: I’ve now discussed my case with four M.D.s, two of whom were orthopedists, one of whom is a surgeon in another specialty, and one of whom is in internal medicine. I’ve worked in clinical environments, including a rheumatology department. And I have lost a family member as a result of medical malpractice. I am intelligent enough to teach at a top research and teaching university, and I’m not about to blindly follow the first recommendation I receive, regardless of what you or anyone else thinks.

Now will you kindly get off my back and let this thread return to its regular programming? If you want to discuss the general state of health care in America or the general dilemma of diagnosing and treating back pain, rather than rider-specific perspectives on hip pain and associated treatments, an Off Topic thread can be arranged.

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For those of you who aren’t on soapboxes: I’m seeing my in-network orthopedist tomorrow to discuss surgery. I’ve got lots of questions, so we’ll see what comes of it…

Also, I’m happy to report I did find the holy grail of saddles for hip pain! I just spent a not-so-small fortune on a narrow twist, monoflap dressage saddle with a nice, non-constricting place to sit and small velcro blocks so I can adjust them to fit with my leg in the least painful position. Unfortunately, even with a narrow horse, the perfect saddle, and a routine diet of acetaminophen and ibuprofin my hip has got the best of me, but it’s nice to find even a little relief.

More to follow, I’m sure, after the surgical consult.

i had a prestige monoflap that i thot was just lurverly for my hip…unfortunately, the pony wasn’t as enthused…

[QUOTE=x-halt-salute;8309386]
You and Lady E are missing the point. Most of us engaged in the core of the conversation are – without your involvement – already asking all the questions, thinking critically about the options, seeking second opinions from a variety of sources, and aren’t simply mindlessly following “authority” in medicine, whether that authority rests with our own M.D.s or celeb docs like Hadler. If you read carefully, you’ll see that nobody here thinks that injections are the ultimate solution for degenerative hip problems, nobody is advocating surgery without careful consideration of whether non-surgical options are reasonable, nobody is blindly following the first recommendation they get from a doc. The problem with Lady E’s participation in this thread, and yours, is that you two are assuming that the rest of us don’t understand the medical decisions we are making, are naive w.r.t. the healthcare industry, and are not able to advocate for ourselves. This is not only wrong, it is insulting. If you care to get involved, ask questions before you make assumptions, and spare us the lame lectures.

I don’t owe any explanations to you, but maybe you and LE will back off if you consider the following: I’ve now discussed my case with four M.D.s, two of whom were orthopedists, one of whom is a surgeon in another specialty, and one of whom is in internal medicine. I’ve worked in clinical environments, including a rheumatology department. And I have lost a family member as a result of medical malpractice. I am intelligent enough to teach at a top research and teaching university, and I’m not about to blindly follow the first recommendation I receive, regardless of what you or anyone else thinks.

Now will you kindly get off my back and let this thread return to its regular programming? If you want to discuss the general state of health care in America or the general dilemma of diagnosing and treating back pain, rather than rider-specific perspectives on hip pain and associated treatments, an Off Topic thread can be arranged.[/QUOTE]

Amen, sister!

The first ortho I saw told me to take two Aleve am and pm, said “what have you taken that makes you feel better” and gave me a prescription for methocarbamol, and sent me to PT with a vague diagnosis. PT helped only insomuch as I stopped riding at the time - when I started riding again I was in pain again. Decided to go to a different ortho who is a hip specialist. Said the first dx of FAI isn’t really conclusive based on my xrays, although my conformation does predispose me to have impingement. Suggested a hip joint injection to see if that would help. I declined that as I don’t really think that’s the problem. Sought out a third MD, a spinal doctor (neurologist, actually) who did an xray of my back and saw and old compression fracture that is exactly where I complain of back pain and muscle spasms. Well, at least I know I’m not crazy. He thinks perhaps my hip pain is referred from my back. I still don’t think so - I think it is a discrete issue caused by strain from something specific I did. He’s ordered a bone scan just to see if anything else is going on, but that isn’t scheduled until October.

In the meantime, I’m trying to find things on my own that will help. I’ve been to a rolfer, and while I enjoy the work, it hasn’t fixed the problem. I’ve stopped riding until at least October, but it might have to be for the whole winter. I’ve started strength training (based on the first doctor and PT who think I need to strengthen my glutes), but found yesterday that the squats really exacerbate the problem. I’m going to a chiropractor/PT/massage therapist on Monday, as I’ve read that trigger point therapy is very helpful and I haven’t been to the chiro since I moved (I would go to my last one first if I was in any pain, and he really helped me).

Am I going down a bunch of rabbit holes? Yes. I have to be my own advocate and go with what I think is at least in the right direction. I don’t think throwing drugs at me or doing an injection willy-nilly (an injection indicated for joints when I feel the problem is soft-tissue related) is the right direction. What I find frustrating is that there seem to be these boxes that must be checked when dealing with insurance companies. Start with xrays. Then drugs. Then PT. Then another diagnostic. Then maybe more PT. Then maybe another diagnostic. It is really annoying.

Years ago I had a bump on my knee. I think I talked to my GP about it on two separate occasions, as well as another doctor. It was one of those “well we get various bumps and bruises as we age, blah blah blah” brush offs. As the bump grew bigger and started to hurt, I went to my husband’s sports medicine doctor who took xrays and said “I don’t know what it is but I know it isn’t supposed to be there” and ordered an MRI and based on the results sent me to a teaching hospital where they ordered surgery for me right away. I had a tumor on my tendon sheath and had to have an open surgery. I had complained of this for a couple years before I got someone to have a good look at it.

Pain really sucks. I don’t want to be inactive. I don’t want to have to stop riding. I don’t want to take drugs to mask the pain. I don’t want to sit on the couch and feel like I’m losing fitness. I don’t want to fidget in my chair at work during the day because I hurt. I don’t want to toss and turn all night long because I can’t get comfortable.

It really, really, really sucks.

I did buy an inversion table and my fingers are crossed that that might give me some relief!

what pocket and x-halt said…

at the time that i had surgery i could not sit in a chair at work, wore a TENS for hours a day. had to wear shoes with springs in the heels to walk.

i could only ride my pony at a walk and jog, and would literally drag the leg behind me for a loooonnnggg time after i got off because it wouldn’t work.

i found a sports med. GP who pretty much diagnosed the issue even previous to MRI because of what the physical exam said.

We left it for a year to see if i could get it to improve, but it kept getting worse, and worse…tried a cortisone injection and got nada out of it.

unfortunately for me, the surgery was still not very old. these days, the surgeons wouldn’t touch me w/ a barge pole!

Well, I’m going in for an MRA tomorrow to get a better picture of the damage to my labrum. Apparently the tear revealed by the regular MRI is not in a very common location so the orthopod wants to get a better sense of its morphology and make sure we don’t see anything else going on in there that merits consideration before we schedule surgery. I like this guy and the approach he is taking.

Pocket Pony, any updates on your pain, or are you on hold in that department until your bone scan? Do I recall correctly that I saw a post in the dressage forum about sitting on your youngster for the first time? Sounds like you’ve got some good things going on in your life to distract you from the pain at least. :slight_smile: Have you tried the inversion table?

I hope the rest of you hip pain pals are doing well lately!

IME the regular MRI doesn’t show all that much unless it’s a 3 tesla (at least according to the docs I’ve been to)…MRA can show a LOT more.

FWIW - I’m trying the FAI Fix program - it’s making a HUGE difference. I’d recommend going ahead and trying it once you are healed up. Im seeing a difference in both legs - some of the muscles just decided that they weren’t going to work anymore, apparently. I’m mostly on the ‘reactivation’ program…

[QUOTE=x-halt-salute;8334469]

Pocket Pony, any updates on your pain, or are you on hold in that department until your bone scan? Do I recall correctly that I saw a post in the dressage forum about sitting on your youngster for the first time? Sounds like you’ve got some good things going on in your life to distract you from the pain at least. :slight_smile: Have you tried the inversion table?

I hope the rest of you hip pain pals are doing well lately![/QUOTE]

Thanks for asking! I’m doing MUCH better! I wish I knew exactly what was making me feel better, but I think it is a combination of things.

  1. Shoes. I realized that I had been wearing a certain pair of shoes more (Clark’s) and I had a flash back to once when we were on vacation and I had hip pain (although not as painful) and I was wearing a pair of shoes that made my feet ache so I threw them away. These shoes are a similar style and so I’ve not been wearing them for two weeks.

  2. Chiropractic & massage . I’ve seen the chiro twice now and had one massage from his therapist and am going again this morning (I’m doing it weekly for 5 weeks). She does trigger point therapy and it hurts like a mofo but I do think she’s getting to those muscles that are most affected (piriformis and gluteus medius).

  3. Inversion table. I Teeter every morning and sometimes twice or three times a day.

  4. Heating pad. I got a heated mattress pad and it helps me sleep better.

  5. This is questionable, but I’ve added more Mg before I go to sleep, B-12 in the morning (in addition to my other vitamins).

I use stretching to gauge how I’m feeling, as when I’m well there are stretches that I can do easily, and if I’m on the verge of pain, well, they are harder (duh!).

Yes, I did get on Princess Fancy Pants last week! It was really impromptu and unplanned, but I did it! She was so good! We just stood there for a few seconds, but I was so proud of her! We had an exciting outing on Saturday.

I decided I was feeling better enough to try riding again. This has been my cycle. Ride. Feel like crap. Stop riding. Feel better. Ride. Feel like crap. So hopping on this weekend was a crap shoot. I’ve been doing ground work and lunging exercises with the horses to keep them in somewhat a little shape, but I’d rather bee riding! I rode both Mac and Paddy (haven’t gotten on him in two years!) both Saturday and Sunday. Saturday I did 15 minutes of walking on each horse and yesterday I went on a 30-minute trail ride with Mac and rode Paddy for 15 minutes at the walk (he’s very out of shape but still willing and sweet). I figure I’ll just do it at the walk for now and as much as I can tolerate before I feel the pain. I’m thinking that my western saddle might not be good for my hip pain and I’m worried that I may have to sell it. I’m not ready to test that theory yet, I’m trying to change just one thing at a time.

I had an MRI and I get the results today and I think I’ll probably cancel the bone scan.

[QUOTE=Pocket Pony;8335118]
Thanks for asking! I’m doing MUCH better!

I had an MRI and I get the results today and I think I’ll probably cancel the bone scan.[/QUOTE]

That’s fantastic news! I hope you can ease back into riding without going back to square one – that was one of the litmus tests that made me pretty sure that what I had going on was not just some overuse injury or soft tissue strain. It sounds like it would be good timing to have found a way to control your pain, with a youngster starting to accept a rider and other horses to work.

Fingers crossed that the MRI is useful and that your new regimen will make it possible to stay in the saddle!

On my end, today I learned what other commenters meant about the pain of hip injections varying a lot based on the practitioner!!! I got a nervous, green resident today and it was not nearly so easy as last time. Took him many tries to get into the capsule, and wasn’t quite as gentle with the needle-on-bone part. Ouch! And he was so eager to get the procedure started that he pulled up my hospital gown and got right in there, leaving me naked from the waist down in a room full of med students, attending, etc. instead of letting the tech drape things a little more modestly. Had he been the handsome and funny radiologist from last time I might have been embarassed. Sigh.

We’ll see what the images show. If nothing is substantially different from what the standard MRI showed I’ll be proceeding with surgery sometime in November.

[QUOTE=tollertwins;8334708]
FWIW - I’m trying the FAI Fix program - it’s making a HUGE difference.[/QUOTE]

Cool! I was actually thinking of starting that program or some more general hip/core strength program before surgery, since I figure strengthening things ahead of time might make recovery easier. I’ve had work and travel stuff that’s kept me from starting, but I’m glad you reminded me to revisit that.

x-halt I’m thinking that the program would be good before surgery, too. the better shape everything is in up front the better it works out in the long run…

by the time i had surgery i was already pretty crippled.

AND - MRA’s are ALWAYS more painful than injections…they put more stuff in the joint. and having a greenie do it - YEOUCH!

[QUOTE=tollertwins;8336389]
x-halt I’m thinking that the program would be good before surgery, too. the better shape everything is in up front the better it works out in the long run…

by the time i had surgery i was already pretty crippled.

AND - MRA’s are ALWAYS more painful than injections…they put more stuff in the joint. and having a greenie do it - YEOUCH![/QUOTE]

I’m gonna start that program right away, then! Thanks so much for finding it and spreading the word!

I just got my MRA results – the tear is bigger than it looked, but is far enough from the junction with the acetabulum that the doctor thinks the best course of action is to remove the tissue that has torn. They also found a bunch of what looks like scar tissue inside the joint, even though the cartilage itself looks to be intact. Not sure what’s going on there, but the doctor recommends removing that as well during arthroscopic surgery.

I’m fed up with the pain, and my doctor thinks I have an excellent prognosis, so I’m going to go ahead and schedule the surgery.

Good luck with the surgery! What is the FAI Fix program?

So my MRI showed that I have a conformational “deformity” called femoral retroversion, which means that the head of the femur is angled back in my acetabulum (meaning I can externally rotate a lot but not internally rotate). It explains a lot about the range of motion I have in my hips (I can externally rotate a lot but not very much internally, and I can’t really draw my knee up to my chest) and how if I’m standing with my feet facing forward, I feel like I’m pigeon-toed.

I also have some soft-tissue inflammation. I’ve asked for a copy of the report so I can read it because he went over it so quickly with me that I don’t remember half of it (bursitis, tendonitis?, but no labral tear).

I’m going to keep riding at the walk and see how that goes.

go here and check it out…both of these guys had issues - they came up w/ it…

thefaifix.com

it’s like $129 - cheaper than most everything else I’ve tried…

[QUOTE=x-halt-salute;8336755]
I’m gonna start that program right away, then! Thanks so much for finding it and spreading the word!

I just got my MRA results – the tear is bigger than it looked, but is far enough from the junction with the acetabulum that the doctor thinks the best course of action is to remove the tissue that has torn. They also found a bunch of what looks like scar tissue inside the joint, even though the cartilage itself looks to be intact. Not sure what’s going on there, but the doctor recommends removing that as well during arthroscopic surgery.

I’m fed up with the pain, and my doctor thinks I have an excellent prognosis, so I’m going to go ahead and schedule the surgery.[/QUOTE]

I would STRONGLY encourage a second option. Not because what you’ve written above rings any warning bells (I sure don’t have the experience to know) but because all of this is relatively new and there are multiple approaches and it’s just good to have another expert weigh in.

You may not even need to actually physically see someone else, but it would probably be really, really good to have another surgeon give an opinion on your MRA and course of action.