This is good to see someone speaking out who is so connected to the sport on different levels. I was very recently at a Q&A with Philip Dutton. Quite a few questions were asked regarding the safety of the sport. While he did mention attempts to make the sport safe, the take away for me was, he seems to think things are fine as is. I am not saying those were his words, only that was my take on what he seemed to be indicating. He never got anywhere near the 3rd rail so to speak, but then this was an overall Eventing Q&A, not a safety forum.
@JER, thank you for re-establishing this tread. It was curious that people have ignored it. Social media is great for promoting buzz about the sport. But, the hero worship you mention is quite toxic and it clouds people’s critical thinking.
As I said earlier, there will be no substantive changes until a sufficient critical mass of elite riders actually say, “we are not competing today”.
Being friends with a couple of Formula One drivers who lived through the 1960’s and 1970’s, I can tell you this is what they did. In his article, Mr. Hollings did not state what actually happened. Back then, it took far more guts and a willingness to give up a ride at the very top level than we can appreciate.
So… why is substantive change not happening now, in spite of all the hand wringing on social media? I can speculate, but not conclude in public.
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A friend and I were talking about this the other day. I said, “is it going to take one of our own dying before we [more locally] do something?” … pause … oh wait. One of ours died, June 2014: Jordan Mcdonald, who was based in England at the time, died after a rotational fall, riding at Prelim (Novice) level. The British Eventing result records it as “R” for retired, rather than what should have been called a mandatory retirement or elimination.
The British did an inquest and found he was not wearing an approved safety vest, but found this wouldn’t have made a difference in the outcome, as he was crushed, with multiple broken ribs and flail chest.
The end result of Mcdonald’s death, someone about my age who grew up competing in my region and was known and liked by many? Here in BC we have a memorial trophy in his name, for a young rider “of distinction”. Out east, where his widow lives, there was a memorial fund in his name; one of his horses was placed with a Canadian rider through social media etc. efforts; and there is a memorial trophy at the Royal Winter Fair.
Not one of these things has to do with safety or changing the sport, they are literally memorials only.
Tragically, one of Jordan’s horses was euthanized about 15 years before, in BC, when it fell at a table on XC and suffered serious injury. I don’t have a great recollection of that (I was at the event but did not witness the fall), though I think they replaced the table jump afterwards. I remember this accident being treated as “things happen” and not as an unacceptable outcome.
I was at the event when Mia Erickson died (Galway 2006). There were a lot of factors involved in her death. However the overarching retrospective I have of that is that it was someone’s fault (because she wasn’t ready, she didn’t retire early enough, the officials didn’t stop her) - even though many did not like the look of the fence she had the rotational at, a vertical into water with some kind of spooky waterfall feature.
Here in BC I am on the safety committee. So far the suggestions I’ve made have been met with indifference or hostility.
For instance, once I was told that my ideas were not needed because they originated from FEI level findings, and we only have levels up to Prelim here. I don’t see how greener riders or less experienced horses shouldn’t have safety measures taken also.
For instance, it is a lot more popular to suggest or host an indoor “XC clinic” than to acknowledge that we should implement some safety measures (such as securing the fences) if we are going to do so.
Lip service is easy. Real safety measures are harder to get support for.
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What sort of substantive change do you (and others) envision?
Not to hijack the thread, but who were the drivers who refused to race?
This is part of the problem. Part 1 is asking an ULR about safety because they are not safety experts. They have experience in the sport but that is just not enough.
Part 2 - is that the pros who are successful dont want change, they like the sport the way it is where they can ride 11 horses a day. Where they can event horses all winter and all summer. Where they can focus more on dressage and less than fitness.
Imagine ULRs were only allowed to ride one or two horses per event. Or if a horse had a set limit of 10 events per year it was allowed to enter. Do you not think they would choose which horses they are taking to event more carefully? Only the horses who are truly ready and competitive would be going. The riders would have more time to spend working on other things at home, without the need to keep 12 horses fit for competition. Plus there is the aspect of the sales horses. I know in Ontario I see BNR pushing young horses who can barely canter a circle around Novice courses so they can get them sold sooner. It all reflects poorly on the sport and that is what happens when there is no limit on how many horses can be ridden at an event.
My opinion is that most ULRs dont want change because they might not be as competitive or able to make as much money. I do not see that they care about the safety of the sport or their horses at all save for a select few.
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Niki Lauda was THE one. He always held that there was an “acceptable level of risk” he was willing to take but no more. In 1975, He pulled into the pits and gave up a world championship in Japan when the track was too dangerous. It was really his rivalry with James Hunt that turned the tide in safety. The organizers of the sport realized it was THEIR JOB to protect the racers. It was Lauda’s crash and being horribly burned at Nuremberg (1975) that the tide began to change.
Earlier in 1975 at the Spanish GP, after Cevert had his head ripped off when an armco barrier failed, Emerson Fittipaldi (world defending champion), refused to even practice because the armco barriers weren’t even fastened to the uprights. Of course the race went on but Ralf Sturmalien crashed and killed 4 spectators and was seriously injured.
It took the top organizer of the sport Bernie Ecclestone (because he owned ALL the marketing rights) and team owner Max Mosely to take responsibility for safety.
But it was Lauda who sealed the deal. Stewart was right in trying to organize drivers, but he had too much inertia against him.
NOW FOR THE REALLY IMPORTANT LESSON!!!
As Max Mosley said, the question is NOT why did the crash happen. It is WHY did the driver get killed.
In other words, accidents will happen, but what can be done to protect the participants WHEN those accidents happen.
The key was having a FULL, FUNDED, SAFETY RESEARCH PROGRAM of ALL aspects of racing. It was lead by Dr. Sid Watkins. It was funded BY THE GOVERNING BODY, using advertising, media income.
USEF, USEA, FEI are all chasing marketing dollars. They want to fill their pockets. Who pays the price? Horses and riders. Time for these entities to put money back where it should be.
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FYI Coth posted on Facebook they are holding a safety summit…of some sort and listed the people they invited. Anyone else see this?
RAyers, What is your opinion of some of the ULR’s specifically raising more money for the USEA by using Facebook? Will this money actually go where it is needed? So far, I have not made a donation, because I am afraid that it will not go where I want it to go.
Winding Down, I have some questions for you- To whom, are Course Designers accountable? To whom, are TD’s accountable? If you say, by sending in an evaluation form, that anything will be done about an issue, then you are fooling yourself. I have tried that, several times, and gotten absolutely no response from the USEA about the specific issues.
Next, if you read what Jon Holling wanted from other ULR’s, he called for a “Boycott” of certain events, if the course was deemed unsafe by the riders, because of the lack of Frangible Pins. You advocate pouring more money into the USEA funds. How will I know that my money is going where I want it to go? Is there a guarantee?
I have not been afraid to speak my mind, when I see something that needs to be changed. However, I agree with Jon Holling that we are considered “trouble makers” and the Officials think that we are a joke. This attitude needs to be changed, too. So, how do you think that we can achieve that?
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Yes! We are… Please submit any safety-related questions you’d like the group to address. We’re batting around topics in an editorial meeting right now, including wondering about how data keeps up, the role of personal responsibility, etc.
"Are you concerned about the state of safety in eventing and what’s being done to make the sport safer for horses and riders at every level?
“The Chronicle is hosting a conversation on safety with eventing leaders including Jimmy Wofford, USEA CEO Rob Burk, USEA President Carol Kozlowski, FEI veterinarian Kent Allen and four-star rider Jon Holling. Post your burning questions here, and we’ll do our best to make sure you get answers. We’ll be posting content from the discussion online at www.coth.com and in the print magazine.”
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Low-level and non-pro riders, heck even pros, pouring more money into an organization that has and is currently failing the sport is not a solution, it’s just a way for people to pass off the blame. The organization leaders will continue to line their pockets until the members actually do something to tell them it’s not okay.
It’s no different, but of course far more important, from the insane ticket prices to go to NFL games. Fans keep paying them, so the NFL keeps raising them. Soccer fans in Europe boycotted when those at the top tried to raise the ticket prices, and guess whose ticket prices did not raise.
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Yep.
When I posted here and also emailed the OHTA on an event that I thought was unsafe, littered with level creep and which a horse did in fact die on this summer - I got loads of hate mail to basically shut up, stop making the sport look bad, and asked to remove references to the horse dying because it was an “accident”.
Doesn’t seem very good, no email reply “thank you for your comment, we will look into this”. Nothing at all, just more blasting from people who know the owners of the event that everything is “fine” and to just basically shut up.
@COTH Molly Sorge I did post my question on FB put I will post some here too;
- Why is there no limit on number of horses a rider can compete at a sanctioned HT or CCI/CIC?
- Why is there no limit on how many events a horse can enter and complete in a 12 month period?
- Why is there no limit of number of falls a horse can have while competing before forcing permanent retirement from recognized events?
- Why are course designers allowed to continuously use fences we KNOW through scientific data analysis are up to 75%more likely to cause a serious fall - IE corners in water, jumps in water, corners and fences out of water?
- Is there a link between being either a professional rider or an amateur rider - or say owner/rider and the severity and occurrence rates of falls?
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This was one of my very specific concerns, that I was told didn’t concern us in our province because our levels only go to Prelim. Yet was there a corner coming out of water and a jump in the water on the Championship Training level course…
A question I have for the safety panel is: what expertise from outside the sport of eventing, or even equestrian, are we turning to, to assist us? We have a very serious problem of all the “leaders” of these safety committees being eventing people with personal stakes, connections, etc. and often very little in the way of applied knowledge other than being a rider/coach/course designer. I’d like to see: experts in safety engineering, using the results from scientific studies we’ve already conducted (as per above) and continuing to use science and data to make decisions.
Not having these eventing safety committees use “common sense” or “industry experience” to make pronouncements such as Capt. Phillips saying the lack of rider responsibility is why riders and horses keep dying.
I would like to ask if the governing bodies are asking EquiRatings (or just doing it themselves) to measure course designers’ accident, fall, and fatality rates, and then make some rules or standards which govern these designers, including banning them from further work if their courses kill horses and riders.
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@COTH Molly Sorge These are some of the studies that I had read a while back supporting those ideas.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4773740/
https://www.horsetalk.co.nz/2015/11/18/eventing-falls-frangible/
http://useventing.com/news/taking-closer-look-safety-statistics-eventing
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There was the same fence coming out of the water at T - on an angle and a max upright corner at the Ontario event I had complained about too.
I would also like to know why it seems like the sport gets changed easily to draw attraction to new riders and sponsors, yet when it comes to safety there is little movement.
Eventing has always been popular, but it doesn’t need to be main stream to survive.
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Originally posted by Jealoushe View Post
- “Why are course designers allowed to continuously use fences we KNOW through scientific data analysis are up to 75%more likely to cause a serious fall - IE corners in water, jumps in water, corners and fences out of water?”
For clarification, I would like to ask if this stat includes these types of jumps, at level of Training and below?
One could argue – I’ve heard it – that at these levels a corner is really nothing more than a narrow oxer, i.e. you could jump it at the widest part of the jump flagged and it would still be OK.
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Molly, I suggest inviting forum member RAyers to join your panel. He’s a longtime eventer with loads of real-world experience in safety. He’s been posting all sorts of wisdom on here for over a decade and he would be a very valuable addition - and also a counterpoint - to your eventing-centric group.
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What really bothers me about the horse death at this event is that we DON’T know, because nothing was ever released / no definitive statement made, about what really happened there. At the event there was speculation that the horse experienced some kind of adverse health event BEFORE falling into/onto the jump, but since no further information was forthcoming, I can’t say with confidence that I know what happened to that horse, even though I was there.
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Not in my neck of the woods. Jumpable face of 5 feet (which is far from the US course design guidelines) with potted plants/hay bales on the top “unjumpable” part.
How is this at 3’3 much different than one at Prelim? Oh wait, this jump was originally built for Prelim. That’s why it’s 3’3.
The horses and riders jumping this are presumably competing at this level because it’s the appropriate level for them. I say a Training level horse who maybe hasn’t got the scope to be an ULH is challenged at a simular level to its ability by a T-level corner as a 1* horse is challenged by a 1* corner. If it hangs a leg and falls, do we shrug and say, “we knew this type and placement of fence was more likely to cause falls at upper levels but who could have predicted this at Training level?”
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