Tinki,
BLUEY, we’d love you to explain what the difference is between “having a horse moving correctly for dressage…and Andalusian high school movements.” Can’t wait to hear this explanation! And make it appropriate…relate it to Fuego here while you’re at it. If it sounds redundant that you have already explained yourself before, then somehow you must not be communicating it very well to me…or to, I’ll bet, a lot of other people reading this thread! You (AND OPEL) are clearly talking about some ‘other’ dressage that perhaps has nothing to do with bringing forth the natural motion of the individual horse…maybe has something to do with a creation of the rider.
Oh, dear, OPEL, you mean someone TRAINED a colt to do piaffe & passage before anything else? How strange is that? Are you SURE you don’t mean that the colt was exhibiting something he already knew naturally?
tinki
Can you seriously say that you think you could get on a 4 month undersaddle colt and have it do piaffe and passage without any training? Have you ever ridden a green broke horse? How else would you get piaffe or passage?
Or do you not know that baroque horses ARE often taught piaffe and passage immediately? This is part of the difference between “moving correctly for dressage vs Andalusian high school”. The horses are taught piaffe and passage from day one and the outcome of that shows up later when trying to fulfill the “technical” aspects of competition dressage. The best classical trainers do not do this and I’m not implying otherwise. Many, many do…
Wow, where do you come up with this stuff, OPEL?! Don’t you know that Andalusian horses already know piaffe and passage?! They have the natural balance for it! It comes about very naturally! It is not something you have to teach them and certainly not something you need to try to avoid. You just have a laugh and let them carry on. Eventually they calm down their enthusiasm and you can get on with other work. When you train horses with freedom it makes the whole process quite a bit easier! Horses NATURALLY come round, naturally carry themselves once they learn how to connect their last lumbar vertebra with their sacrum with a rider on top. All this pushing horses forward and so often out of their natural tempos is just craziness! You spend all your time pushing them OUT of balance only to turn around later and ask them to BE in balance. No, I am really not a fan of ‘modern’ dressage.
I have broken 40 horses over the last 30 years and can honestly say that it is the Iberians that show this talent right off the bat! No one needs to teach them this! And one would never want to squash them for what a wonderful thing they do so naturally that will come in handy later.
A greenbroke horse is too weak in the muscles to carry a rider correctly, much less do the most demanding collection. This is the reason that asking for (or allowing) piaffe and passage within the first months of training results in incorrect use of the body. These guys want to do it but they don’t have the muscle to do it correctly at that time. Incorrect muscle memory is a bear to change. I, personally, think it’s inhumane to stress their young bodies like this. Let them piaffe and passage in the pasture but save the high collection under saddle until they have more strength in the muscles, ligaments and tendons–and save it until they understand the half halt at least!
And no. I don’t believe that any greenbroke horse naturally does piaffe and /or passage without being trained to do so. They might get excited and do piaff-like or passagey–but the real deal is whole different thing.
[QUOTE=Tinki;5147061]
Wow, where do you come up with this stuff, OPEL?! Don’t you know that Andalusian horses already know piaffe and passage?! They have the natural balance for it! It comes about very naturally! It is not something you have to teach them and certainly not something you need to try to avoid. You just have a laugh and let them carry on. Eventually they calm down their enthusiasm and you can get on with other work. When you train horses with freedom it makes the whole process quite a bit easier! Horses NATURALLY come round, naturally carry themselves once they learn how to connect their last lumbar vertebra with their sacrum with a rider on top. All this pushing horses forward and so often out of their natural tempos is just craziness! You spend all your time pushing them OUT of balance only to turn around later and ask them to BE in balance. No, I am really not a fan of ‘modern’ dressage.
I have broken 40 horses over the last 30 years and can honestly say that it is the Iberians that show this talent right off the bat! No one needs to teach them this! And one would never want to squash them for what a wonderful thing they do so naturally that will come in handy later.[/QUOTE]
Sadly, while some things you say may be correct -your general rudeness kind of submarines any valid point you have:/
I do understand what you are saying however, I grew up in the Med and sat my 1st piaffe at the age of 8, and was lucky enough to ride many years with Nuno.
Regardless. Iberian horses (lipizzans most specifically) do have a high probability to be skilled at piaffe and passage due to their body structure and specialized breeding They are quite quick at picking up the idea. however it is not a natural gait like w/t/c is - they still require time , patience and lots of practice.
No argument from me, I absolutely adore seeing baroque horses in dressage it is what they are meant to be doing.
- Are they better then WBS, eh, I think its all relative. if a test is technically correct, I don’t care what breed it is or isn’t- I just like to sit back and enjoy watching the skill and talent. (I guess I’m easy to please:)
[QUOTE=Tinki;5147061]
Wow, where do you come up with this stuff, OPEL?! Don’t you know that Andalusian horses already know piaffe and passage?! They have the natural balance for it! It comes about very naturally! It is not something you have to teach them and certainly not something you need to try to avoid. You just have a laugh and let them carry on. Eventually they calm down their enthusiasm and you can get on with other work. When you train horses with freedom it makes the whole process quite a bit easier! Horses NATURALLY come round, naturally carry themselves once they learn how to connect their last lumbar vertebra with their sacrum with a rider on top. All this pushing horses forward and so often out of their natural tempos is just craziness! You spend all your time pushing them OUT of balance only to turn around later and ask them to BE in balance. No, I am really not a fan of ‘modern’ dressage.
I have broken 40 horses over the last 30 years and can honestly say that it is the Iberians that show this talent right off the bat! No one needs to teach them this! And one would never want to squash them for what a wonderful thing they do so naturally that will come in handy later.[/QUOTE]
So we are going to start deciding who is right by our bragging about how many horses we have started?
I had started 50 horses by the time I was 16 and about 20% of those were andalusian colts.
I lost count long ago how many horses I started after that, but in the hundreds I would say.
As a teenager, I was not the trainer, I was the test pilot, the riding master started them and I was learning from him and once we had them going well as a general riding horse, the specialists andalusian high school trainers came in to work with them in high school and I was learning right along with them also.
Those men had spent a lifetime training and doing demonstrations with extremely well trained andalusians, they were some of the top andalusian trainers in the country and worked for the best breeders, some of those that sent their colts for us to start.
Yes, those men were starting them already, a few months after their first saddling at four years of age, with the basics of high school movements, including piaffe and passage and of course the standard series of tricks andalusians are started with I had already been teaching them all along, stretching, bowing, kneeing, laying down, sitting up and standing back up with a rider.
That at least was the standad way to start and train andalusians 50-60 years ago and my understanding is that is how they had been trained for some centuries now, for what everyone said.
When I moved on to dressage as is tested for in the discipline called dressage, I had much to learn different than what I had learned with andalusian colts, the first forward and true contact and why that was elemental to all that comes later, not just for dressage but for basic riding and jumping, etc.
There is lightness and there is incomplete, uneven and false contact and lightess and, once you understand and ride the difference, it is very telling.
I ride reiners today and that is yet one more very different kind of self carriage for a horse and again, not so easy when your own muscle memory is not used to that, ask Anky.
The reason few baroque horses do that well in today’s dressage disciplines at the top is because they rarely are good all arounders and at the top great all arounders is what scores best.
Andalusians are not bred for that, just for specialists at extreme collection and not that good at the more forward gaits.
You can find some that are that good, but not as many as you can find in warmbloods, chosen and bred for being all arounders already for long time now.
That is what breeding for certain characteristics gives you, that is exactly what you breed for and you need the right tool for the job, when you want to do it at it’s best.
Want baroque horses to compete with warmbloods in today’s dressage competitions at the top?
Bred them for that, but they will lose some of what makes them who they have been traditionally.
When I saw his performance, the first thought that came to my mind was “big lick walking horse.” I felt like a person just needs to add a little weight to those front hooves and you could enter him in a big lick class. I don’t like his leg wavy front end at all. He’s a lovely animal, and cleary is beautifully trained but to be called the “horse of the century” just seems wrong to me. Coupled with the freaky funeral music, the whole performance just felt a bit weird and uncomfortable for me. Yes, I was glad to be able to watch him, and yes I can admire and appreciate the horse for what he is, but personally I don’t see what all the whoop is about with him.
My husband and I were watching together and when I saw Totilas coming on I turned the volume way up, and slid down to the end of the couch closest the TV. I told him to Shhhhh! But after about 45 seconds, I was throwing a toy for the dog and wondering where I’d set my iced tea.
I loved watching Fuego’s performance!!! Some technical errors, yes, but the sheer joy and harmony between horse and rider has never been more evident at this level.
I do agree with those who say they don’t want to see dressage turn into a circus show with the whole crowd gone wild. One of the things I have long admired about dressage is the precision, professionalism, and technicality. But this is the Freestyle so it should be more show’y and fresh.
Fuego and his rider are what will draw people into this sport. They epitomize the harmony and partnership between horse and rider. Yes I did agree that his neck was short and tight, but he’s an Andalusian ferpetesake. They aren’t exactly born with stretchy, snakey necks.
In any case, it was extremely clear who the star of the show was.
Opel Says
"A greenbroke horse is too weak in the muscles to carry a rider correctly, much less do the most demanding collection.
I don’t believe that any greenbroke horse naturally does piaffe and /or passage without being trained to do so. They might get excited and do piaff-like or passagey–but the real deal is whole different thing."
How much is your vision impaired?
First: all horses can carry our weight with the muscles provided by nature and collection is a natural thing for them.
Second: all horses can and do correct piaffe/passage on their own.
Why do you think dressage even exists?
It it because of the ancient cavalrymen observing ‘dressage’ movements in naturally free horses, created the aids to encourage the horse to perform the movements when ridden and in battle.
I’ll counter that with: if you think Fuego wasn’t behind the bit during parts of his ride, your journey will be even longer…
In another of your posts you tried to argue that Diaz was pushing his hands forward to show Fuego’s “self-carriage.” Sorry, I’m not buying.
Though others (myself included) had addressed this point: you are also correct when you say that contact is not all about the reins - you can indeed demonstrate self carriage by giving the reins to your horse and him maintaining his carriage without the support of your rein. However, when you ask the horse with your other aids to move into that contact, he had better do it seamlessly at this level. And besides, you don’t need that much slop in your reins to demonstrate self carriage either. Give the judges some credit.
Though Fuego was undoubtedly demonstrating self carriage at various points throughout his test, the times when Diaz was pushing his reins forward (and usually visibly encouraging with the leg), I’d imagine he was really trying hard to get Fuego to take up that contact - he was NOT showing off how exceptional Fuego’s self carriage was at that moment. By your words, you are the one who is confused about the difference between being behind the bit and self carriage, not Bluey, not Opel, not me.
Again, this doesn’t mean Fuego didn’t put on a spectacular performance and that Diaz doesn’t deserve a LOT of credit for this exceptional freestyle.
However, it does mean he and his trainer exhibit many of the same flaws those pesky “modern dressage” warmbloods and their rollkur using trainers exhibit.
Just because this horse is grey and a PRE doesn’t suddenly mean he’s a fantastic example of “classical” dressage.
[QUOTE=bort84;5156030]
However, it does mean he and his trainer exhibit many of the same flaws those pesky “modern dressage” warmbloods and their rollkur using trainers exhibit.[/QUOTE]
well, horses being horses they can only respond in certain ways…
the trick is to look under [insert behavior here] to see why it is happening - i dont think in general that Fuego has the same issues as rollkured/hand dominated horses. i think his “issues” are different altho they might manifest in a similar way.
I probably shouldn’t post, as this seems to have lined up into camps and I love both Fuego and Totilas, but I was interested by the question of the riders’ hands and what they are doing with them.
I’ve just watched the dvd of the Special, in order to have a direct comparison between riders. I wasn’t looking so much at the horses per se, but at what the riders did with their hands and what effect it seemed to have on the horses, both in normal and slow motion.
Overall, I’d say this discussion is kinda veering off into never-never land on both sides. The rides are very different because the horses are very different, but overall both Gal and Manuel appear to have very giving hands.
The Spanish rider very often puts his horse “on parole” and occasionally lifts his hands quickly, but I don’t see much of this supposed encouragement to open up his neck–I think whatever he’s doing, it has a different purpose. I’d love to hear him talk about it himself, but the quick lift seems to occur in moments of collection, and I think it’s more of a cue, a request for more action behind, than a “give,” but this is merely speculation based on when he does it. He’s very active with his seat, but then the horse is very very quick and it seems appropriate to be quick with him.
Gal just has such quiet and soft hands that there’s not much else to say about it. He also seems to give Toto “parole” very often, just being very soft when he isn’t actually asking for something in particular. I see no overt indication that he’s setting the head, and when Toto comes behind the vertical it seems to me to coincide with moments of great effort, not with any hand action. Gal just seems to be able to keep that soft give wherever the horse puts his head.
Laura B, OTOH, is really really active with her hands. I was there and it was quite visible even from the stands. Her hands are seldom still, and so I don’t see a lot of softness because they just keep moving. That doesn’t mean it’s not there, but it’s not as apparent as with the other two riders. So I watched the vid carefully to see if I was remembering right. In certain movements, she is making a quick upward motion with one hand every stride. It’s big and it appears to be quite jerky, ie, it seems to come against his mouth rather to be soft. It doesn’t seem to bother the horse but the rider looks quite tense. This really intrigues and puzzles me, and again I’d like to hear the rider explain what she was doing and why.
None of this is to say one way is right and one is wrong. But I’d suggest that everyone who is really interested in these horses and their performance, spend the $25 to get the Grand Prix Special dvd and do a direct comparison. You don’t get that kind of opportunity very often.
I find it really worthwhile to ask these questions and make the direct observations, instead of haranguing about what’s “correct” and what isn’t. I think Gal and Manuel have more in common, really. They are allowing more than they are directing, whereas Laura seems to be directing a lot to me.
Caveat, this is simply observation, no claims to have the ultimate truth.
bort84,
There is a difference between a horse that is ‘behind the bit’ and one that is ‘behind the vertical’. When a horse is ‘behind the bit’ the rider is in serious trouble…there is not much, if any, control…the horse may drop the bit or escape the bit entirely…all ‘contact’(and by ‘contact’ I do not mean just with the hand) is lost.
‘Behind the bit’ can be hard to see sometimes as it can be disguised in a horse that is even ‘on the vertical’ or ‘in front of the vertical’. The horse will not go willingly forward and maneuverability is just not possible.
‘Behind the vertical’ is a visual of the head position a young horse sometimes takes to make it easier for himself to arch his back to carry the rider better, is a posture sometimes used to ‘control’ a strong unruly horse, or is a deliberate position a rider puts the horse into for whatever his particular reason(rollkur???). An exuberant stallion will also sometimes coil his neck proudly and take his head behind the vertical…but this does not necessarily mean he will also escape his rider’s control when he does so.
