You have said what I tried to say in Post #63 but you say it with diplomacy. 
The best way to help workers is to begin locally and help them financially with the funds you would otherwise be using to show, if you are truly concerned about their welfare.
I’m seeing this across the board outside of the horse world. People wants folks to go back to work so they can provide goods and services to them. It’s not that they genuinely want their hair salon’s employees to “save their livelihoods” or “get back to the jobs they love and miss”. They’re roots are showing and they want a new set of acrylics.
Saddens me that you seem to have such a negative blanket view of what motivates people.
I’ve been with my hair dresser for 8 yrs. She did my wedding hair and make-up. She lives in Mexico now but travels back to the US every 12 weeks for a week of appointments.This is how she makes the majority of her income these days. I have long blonde hair that looks the same if highlighted every 12 weeks or 6 months. Getting my hair done is pricey and my hair still looks the same as it always does. I’d be more the happy to “skip” her visit this time. But I’m going because she has open slots and I want to continue to support her.
Some people have real relationships with people in the service industry and really do want to support them.
Skip the appointment and send the money anyway. You’re supporting her without putting her at risk. This is where I see the disconnect. You can support people without asking them to risk their safety for something optional that you enjoy.
That was only an example I used. I also like to maintain long term relationships with my hair stylists, nail artists, dentist, PCP, etc. That’s very important to me. My point is, I’m not wishing them back any sooner than what is safe. Because I care about them I’d rather see them remain closed until it is safe, not pressure them to open sooner. My hair can wait.
I realize not everyone has selfish agendas behind proclaiming their support for small business owners. Again, just an example about a particular group of people.
I think we are just going to have to agree to disagree. At some point, you can’t just can’t just give everyone money during an economic downturn that you wish you could. Where do you draw the line? Salons are legally allowed to be open where I live. When will it be safe? Do I pay for hair appointments for the next year, but not go? Pay for one time? Two times?
I am comfortable with the level of risk and so is she. No one is forcing anyone into a situation in which they are not comfortable. Expecting people to continue to pay service providers for services not received for an indefinite amount of time is just not realistic IMO.
except you literally just said your hair looks exactly the same whether you see her or not, so you are already basically paying for a service ‘not received’.
Wait, this makes no sense.
You can afford the hair styling. You say you don’t need it. You care deeply about your stylist as a person.
Well, then that means you can pay her without expecting her to work.
The slippery slope is a logical fallacy. The question is not whether you can do it indefinitely. The question is whether you can do it NOW. While it’s not safe. And you can! You just choose not to. You would rather her take a risk so you can get a luxury item you want. That’s fine if that’s your choice, but let’s call a spade a spade. According to you you’re 100% in a position to do your part to “keep her business going” without putting her at risk, but you prefer to instead put her at risk so you can get a luxury. Ok, you’re entitled and she’s agreed to it. But let’s be honest. That’s what you’re doing.
You have no idea what she’s truly comfortable with. You can’t have it both ways. Either she’s opening because she needs the money. Or she doesn’t need the money and you staying home won’t hurt her. It also doesn’t matter how comfortable she is. She’s still taking a risk (and so are you). You might be comfortable eating a skittle out of a bag where 1 in every 500 is poisoned and will kill you. It’s still a risk.
You say you care about this person but not enough to support her business without putting her health at risk. That’s the measure how how much you care. Not enough to send her one visit’s worth gratis of whatever she charges to do your hair. That’s how much this person you claim is so near and dear to you is worth. So very much that you wouldn’t send her a disposable wad of cash you planned to spend anyway for free. Got it. I don’t know how much a hairstyling costs (I truly don’t, $50?) Her health and safety is worth less than that to you. You wouldn’t pay $50 so that she had less exposure to someone who might transmit to her a deadly virus.
It’s selfish. That’s ok. Lots of people are selfish. We all act selfishly in different ways. I make selfish decisions too. I’m not suggesting I don’t. As you point out, she’s opened her salon. You’re not doing anything illegal. You’re not the only one making this choice. But that doesn’t make it altruistic. Don’t delude yourself. You are not going to get your hair styled because you care about her. You’re doing it because you care about you. That’s all I am saying. Just be honest. This isn’t about her, it’s about you.
The altruistic choice is easy. Call her up, say “what’s your venmo? I care about you and I don’t want you risking your health for my hairdo. I’m sending you the $X I would normally pay for my haircoloring. Please keep the money. I’ll see you when the virus is more under control. Take care.”
It’s not hard. I’m not saying your doing anything WRONG but I am saying you should try to be a little more honest with yourself about your motivations. A lot of the people saying “I want businesses to open because I care about the workers” really mean “I want people taking a risk because I’m selfish and I want the things I like and am accustomed to.” A little self reflexivity here is a good thing. We could all support small businesses today without putting them at risk. But a gift card online. Go back to the salon when things are safe again. Boom. Done.
You obviously have very strong opinions on this, and that’s ok. You can also call me selfish. I was originally responding to this statement (bolding mine):
“I’m seeing this across the board outside of the horse world. People wants folks to go back to work so they can provide goods and services to them. It’s not that they genuinely want their hair salon’s employees to “save their livelihoods” or “get back to the jobs they love and miss”. They’re roots are showing and they want a new set of acrylics.”
I wanted to share my viewpoint that not everyone is desperate for people to go back to work simply to get something for themselves. I am actually not an advocate of opening things back up so quickly, but I don’t make the rules. I would be fine with things staying closed longer. I am also in no way saying I am doing doing something altruistic by seeing my hair dresser. I’m not telling myself (or anyone else) that I am “saving her livelihood”. If you want to vilify people who are spending their money at salons that is also ok.
You are right, I do not know her circumstances intimately. You are also right that I could just venmo her and not come. I’m not going to get into the details of the costs because that’s really not the point. You are right that I selfishly would like to receive a service in exchange for my money. You do not know my circumstances, or what charitable causes I do donate too.
I think you can care about someone in the capacity to want to support their business without going so far as to donate money. We are not close friends or family, so if that makes me selfish in your opinion I accept that. I do not think I am doing anymore then filling one of her open slots, which I know will help her bottom line. We have a good working relationship, and that is the extent of it. I hope this is me being honest enough.
In short, I did not advocate for non-essential things to open. Those things have now opened where I live, so I choose to support someone I have working relationship with by booking a service and paying for said service. That is the extent of what I think I am doing. I thought that is all I was saying when I said “Some people have real relationships with people in the service industry and really do want to support them.” Maybe your version of ‘I really do want to support them’ means donating money. Sorry if you think I was implying something else.
This is the part of your quote that caught my eye. In reality, by demanding that the only way you would support this person that you hold so near and dear is by her providing you a service, you are forcing her and many other workers into a situation where they may no be comfortable because we refuse to support them otherwise.
We are endangering so many people and lives by demanding that everything opens up because why in the world should we support people if they’re withholding services?
I support the idea of a universal living wage until all of this is over. I am sick of the corporate welfare and telling every worker to shut up and work. The government is basically telling us either work and get sick or starve. Fortunately, I am in a position where I continue to work and collect a paycheck. I have been supporting local businesses by buying gift cards that may never be used because they may go out of business. I don’t mind because they have given me so much I feel like it’s not so hard to give back in a time of crisis.
I refuse to personally hold these businesses financially hostage and only support them when I find it beneficial to me.
I understand where you’re coming from and trust me, I take no pleasure in calling people selfish. We all make selfish decisions. But they are decisions WE MAKE. There are decisions in your control here, @HJdaydream
You decide to go to the salon. That is your choice. No one is forcing you to do that. By doing so, you’re putting someone at risk. Which you know. You’re also putting yourself at risk. You know that too. Hair styling is a luxury, and by your own account one that you don’t particularly need at the moment anyway. You’re doing it anyway. For you. Not for anyone else. That’s fine. We all have to decide what we can live with. But it’s your choice to go. Period. It has nothing to do with what is/is not open in your state. YOU are choosing to go. And you don’t have to.
We all have to make choices these days. Do I go to the grocery store every 2 weeks or try to stretch to every 3? I am putting others and myself at risk every time I go. But I would be happier with a less crammed fridge and more fresh produce at the end of the time period. So I have to make the choice. Do I go now or try to wait? But food is essential. I can’t live without it. At some point, I need someone to put herself at risk so I can have food and live.
The same is not true of other choices.
I can live without lots of other places I’d enjoy shopping, even if they were open. I enjoy browsing at Michael’s Crafts. They’re open. It would be legal for me to go there. I would be supporting the business and the employees who work there. But I won’t. Because I’m not willing to put other people at risk for watercolor paints or soapmaking supplies. I have to make a choice. I could choose to go there right now, but if I did-- that would be me putting my own WANTS before the health of others and I’m choosing not to do that. The fact that they’re open or that other people are going is irrelevant. I can’t control that. I can control what I do.
I won’t die from lack of arts and crafts. You won’t die from waiting 2-3 more months to get your hair done.
This has nothing to do with how charitable you may be in other contexts. Being an angel 99% of the time does not excuse being a sh*thead 1% of the time (and I am not suggesting it is that extreme). Nor does it really matter what a great person you are generally. None of that is what this is about.
This is about the fact that you are deciding you prioritize getting your hair done (a service you say you’re not even truly due for) over the health and safety of someone you say you have a “real relationship” with. That’s the question. Are you choosing getting your hair done, which you don’t even really need by even your own standards, over another human beings’s health? Yes. You are. Ok. But that’s YOUR CHOICE and your choice alone. And that’s the choice you’re making.
I agree with the above. I wish this was the case.
I think it’s a little unfair to say I am personally forcing someone into a situation they are uncomfortable with. I think that is making a lot of assumptions that we can’t know the answers to at this time. But, you are allowed to feel that way. It is apparent that I am the bad guy for not just donating money for an optional service that is legally allowed to resume at this time with precautions being adhered to. It is apparently many people’s view that that makes me selfish.
I thought I was being a supportive client to her by booking an empty slot that she might not otherwise fill. Yes, I agree, paying for a service not rendered would be even better. I’m sorry I’m not as good of a person as others on here when it comes to this situation. I don’t remember ever claiming to be this amazing altruistic person, but here we are. I should have been more clear upfront that when I said I wanted to support her I meant “support her with my patronage”.
Bolding is my own.
I think this is fair. In light of this discussion, I do care for this person and I will shoot her a text and question if she is comfortable or not. I’d be happy to pay now for a gift card for future use when it is safer if she feels she is being forced to work now but doesn’t feel safe.
In this “new normal” we are all making these types of choices every day and I think it’s good to have a discussion about them.
I’m glad this has made you think reflexively. We ALL COULD DO THAT MORE. We all probably should have been doing that ALL ALONG. I look back at decisions I made before the pandemic, man, I was so selfish sometimes.
This whole pandemic has given me some perspective. Things are not normal, they will not be normal for a while, a LOT of this is out of my control. I’m not perfect but I am going to try to make sure I am thoughtful about the choices I make because one thing I do control is how I behave. I think it takes a big person to admit publicly that they didn’t think things through fully and I commend you for that @HJdaydream
Wouldn’t it be a great thing if other people read this thread and were able to apply some of the discussion to something in their own lives?
Or if not that, if the two of us were more thoughtful about how we impact other people? Even if that happened, that would be one good thing coming from the current situation.
@vxf111 Well said. I do think that is one of the great things about this forum- voicing differing opinions and working through them. Often times we are only close friends with people that hold similar views, and it is easy to not think about differing perspectives. I come here the read various view points and for thoughtful discussion.
These are hard times and seeing so much discourse on the news is disheartening. At our core, I firmly believe most people want to “do the right thing”, it’s just not always clear what that thing is.
Back to the subject of June horse shows, despite the continued optimistic posts on Facebook, I don’t understand how HITS Saugerties would be able to run. Ignoring the question of whether it should at all, the show is not in one of the New York regions scheduled to enter Phase 1 on Friday and looking at the guidelines from the state it doesn’t seem like events like horse shows would be part of the first phase. With two weeks between each phase the first week of June seems very unlikely. Am I missing a loophole somewhere?
As for Lamplight, it’s stuck in the region of Illinois with the worst numbers being outside Chicago. Illinois isn’t moving any region into their phase 3 until the end of May and that still limits gatherings to 10 people or fewer.
Curious if anyone thinks either of those shows will run in June as planned?
Can’t see HITS Saugerties running the June show. July, maybe.
Also, just saw that Brandywine cancelled their 2020 horse shows and now USEF is looking for alternate locations for Jr. Hunter finals.
I think Michigan is a wash in June. Brownland cancelled their schooling show, saying horse shows wouldn’t be available until phase 3 of opening. I don’t see them doing June either. I’ll be surprised if we horse show by July in some of these places.
Lamplight feels iffy at this point. Governor said today that the region w/ Chicago and Lamplight’s county is not up to par with what is needed to move to Phase 3 at the end of the month. But i’m not sure if Phase 3 is enough for horse shows? Even phase 4 is gatherings of less than 50 and “large events” aren’t until phase 5.
Blenheim has cancelled at least the first two of the June shows they were planning to run starting at the beginning of June at the Oaks in San Juan Capistrano (Orange County, California).
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