Just an FYI - Hagyard has suspended use of their HBOT chamber until further notice, to go over protocol at the facility. They are the first I have heard of doing such.
You mean they had more than one chamber?
Oh, never mind, another company in the field…
Good for them!
Dumb question forthcoming, buckle up…
Why couldn’t a mask (a la WWI) be made/worn for horses and the O2 pumped in? Does the whole horse have be in the chamber??
I didn’t look anything up, just wondering.
[QUOTE=goneriding24;6142291]
Dumb question forthcoming, buckle up…
Why couldn’t a mask (a la WWI) be made/worn for horses and the O2 pumped in? Does the whole horse have be in the chamber??
I didn’t look anything up, just wondering.[/QUOTE]
Have you ever worn an O2 mask? I have. Getting a good seal/fit is very difficult. If you have facial hair it’s impossible. That’s why tactical aircraft pilots don’t have beards (only manly mustachios 
).
The WWI equine gas mask was designed to give a level of protection long enough to get clear of the gas. It was not designed for extended wear and I suspect was not tightly sealed (as doing such against a skin covered with horse hair would have been impossible).
A “bag” over the head that was loosely fastened and slightly pressurized (so that there was always outflow) would work. My wife (an M.D.) advises that a 100% O2 environment does have positive healing qualities for open wounds. It is often used in humans to deal with bed sores and other open wounds.
The thing is that in a 100% O2 environment a spark of any kind can lead to a catatrophic event faster than counter-measures can be employed. There’s a Navy training film made in the '70s called “The Man From LOX.” Don’t watch the last 30" if you’ve got a weak stomach:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9sIT6P_05I
The hyperbaric chambers don’t use LOX but do have the 100% O2 environment that LOX can create. In that sense the film is quite informative.
From some of the information published so far it would seem that the chamber in question may have had some design flaws and the protocol for use might have been more thoughtfully designed/used.
G.
Yep, I’ve worn one. Well, a gas mask. But, I’m a girl, no need for a beard.
I haven’t seen a horse mask in person, much less checked it out.
I was thinking the O2 went through the body’s system and healed from inside out. Kind of like the little bottles of O2 you can buy to suck on (forgive me, can’t think of the word I want) to wake you up, say, on long drives and such.
As before, I know nothing about this procedure. As for the subject of this post, to my mind, it seems people had done this so much, complacency set in and maybe the protocols weren’t followed. Due to some of my LDs, I can’t follow all the mumbo-jumbo that has been posted.
Also, only 1/4" for the covering?? To me, that smacks of waiting for something bad to happen when you add in a horse.
Thanks for the warning on the vid. I do have a weak stomach now, a real wuss. Back in the day, I could have watched and not flinched too much. Today, I’d prolly have nightmares or something.
Hagyard has closed their chamber temporarily until they can review safety precautions with the manufacturer.
[QUOTE=goneriding24;6142291]
Dumb question forthcoming, buckle up…
Why couldn’t a mask (a la WWI) be made/worn for horses and the O2 pumped in? Does the whole horse have be in the chamber??
I didn’t look anything up, just wondering.[/QUOTE]
100% O2 at surface isn’t the same as 100% O2 under pressure. You can breathe the O2 through a mask/head tent, that’s exactly what human hyperbaric patients in multi-place HBOT chambers do - but the person and the gas they’re breathing still has to be pressurized. If just the O2 was pressurized and the person not, it would immediately expand upon reaching the non-pressurized environment (= the respiratory tract) and either be lost or cause a lung to pop.
So the horse would still have to go into the chamber, be pressurized, and then breathe pressurized O2 via some delivery device. The advantage is that pressurizing the chamber with air and delivering O2 via mask, as opposed to pressurizing the whole doggone thing with O2, lessens the risk of fire.
[QUOTE=Coanteen;6143024]
100% O2 at surface isn’t the same as 100% O2 under pressure. You can breathe the O2 through a mask/head tent, that’s exactly what human hyperbaric patients in multi-place HBOT chambers do - but the person and the gas they’re breathing still has to be pressurized. If just the O2 was pressurized and the person not, it would immediately expand upon reaching the non-pressurized environment (= the respiratory tract) and either be lost or cause a lung to pop.
So the horse would still have to go into the chamber, be pressurized, and then breathe pressurized O2 via some delivery device. The advantage is that pressurizing the chamber with air and delivering O2 via mask, as opposed to pressurizing the whole doggone thing with O2, lessens the risk of fire.[/QUOTE]
Thank you. :yes:
[QUOTE=bugsynskeeter;6138971]
You cannot require racehorses in active training who come in a few times a week for training to pull shoes each and every time.[/QUOTE]
Are you sure? I’m not questioning your own protocol, of course! But I’m not entirely certain that this COULDN’T be a requirement. Way back in the 1970s when I jogged some Standardbreds for a local owner/trainer, I remember that many of the horses had their shoes pulled very frequently indeed, and some trainers would even have the shoes pulled and replaced more than once in a given day - in fact, a few trainers would remove and replace shoes between heats! (I think they used a LOT of plastic wood on those hooves; after a point they did begin to resemble colanders).
This was undoubtedly less than wonderful for the horses’ hooves, but it really WAS common practice… so if there were a rule that all shoes had to be pulled before this type of treatment, I don’t think that all trainers would automatically regard that requirement as a deal-breaker. Again, I’m not questioning your own experiences or your protocol, I’m just wondering whether the chambers might not continue to be economically viable even if such a rule were instituted.
Here’s where I stand with the limited knowledge I have on this:
If the horse is well enough to be training [ie can not pull shoes] in whatever discipline s/he is in, then s/he is not unwell enough to need this chamber.
I understand some horses who are in rehab might need to be handwalked or have some limited turnout in conjunction with the chamber treatments, but again if they can not do that without shoes, well maybe they’re not really the athlete you think they are?
Of course those who own and sell these things won’t like that answer, cause I am sure fewer chamber visits is not what they are after nor what pays the bills.
[QUOTE=Angela Freda;6146064]
Here’s where I stand with the limited knowledge I have on this:
If the horse is well enough to be training [ie can not pull shoes] in whatever discipline s/he is in, then s/he is not unwell enough to need this chamber.
I understand some horses who are in rehab might need to be handwalked or have some limited turnout in conjunction with the chamber treatments, but again if they can not do that without shoes, well maybe they’re not really the athlete you think they are?
Of course those who own and sell these things won’t like that answer, cause I am sure fewer chamber visits is not what they are after nor what pays the bills.[/QUOTE]
Horses wear shoes for many different reasons and if a horse has a foot pathology or injury that requires a shoe for support/protection then pulling that shoe might be a Very Bad Idea. If they also suffer from a condition that requires hyperbaric treatment what do you do? Which protocol will take priority?
Protecting against sparks from shoes would not be all that difficult. Lots of follks know about the various types of boots out there. Properly applied they don’t just “come off.”
Protective coatings on walls must be thick enough, or durable enough (think “RhinoLining”) to withstand multiple blows by a thrashing horse. Again, this seems doable to me.
100% O2 environments are dangerous by definition. That’s why I put up the “Man From LOX” video link. LOX is not used in hyperbaric chambers but it can create that 100% O2 atmosphere and it shows the speed and violence of O2 fires.
To eliminate the risk completely you eliminate the hyperbaric chamber. Yet it has a substantial utility in the treatment of many conditions. So if you are going to use it your protocol must be strict and strictly complied with.
G.
[QUOTE=Guilherme;6146162]
Horses wear shoes for many different reasons and if a horse has a foot pathology or injury that requires a shoe for support/protection then pulling that shoe might be a Very Bad Idea. If they also suffer from a condition that requires hyperbaric treatment what do you do? Which protocol will take priority?
G.[/QUOTE]
Really? I had no idea!
I understand that, but if the foot pathology or injury is such that they need shoes, well the chamber then isn’t for them.
ETA as for boots and protecting against sparks from shoes, it in fact does appear to be that difficult. Lots of folks know about the various types of boots out there, certainly, and in fact they do just “come off.” or otherwise ‘fail’ as they appear to have done in this case.
The manufacturer has suggested that all users of their chambers cease using them until investigations are complete and additional training programs, if deemed necessary, are initiated.
I am guessing the no-shoes-in-the-HBOT would take priority. From this and the eventing thread it sounds as though the human protocol includes no metal of any kind in there, as it doesn’t actually require a spark, just oxidation. I suppose I could accept that people might be willing to undertake more risk when it comes to horses than humans, but in this case the human technicians are also in danger.
Also, I’m not sure if in current veterinary medicine HBOT is yet “required” for any condition. It is fairly rare.
But there are alternatives out there. Personally, if it were me and I were seeking treatment for my horse who is currently in a pair of flat steel bar shoes, I would discuss the alternative of doing a glue on vinyl shoe or one of the rubber shoes. But, I proceed with more things horsey with extreme caution.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperbaric_medicine
I know it’s only Wiki but it’s something I can understand.
Some thoughts…right or wrong…
The ears have to equalise pressure. If not done right, of course a horse is going to feel pain and lash out. Actually, it hurts my ears to think about that!
It is used to necrotize soft tissue injuries, but, good grief, it seems to me to be overkill when you look at ALL the other things for which it’s used! If a horse has that bad of an injury, should he/she be worked at all?? If so, why would he/she be wearing shoes??
As for a race trainer pulling the shoes, back in the day, I remember hearing of trainers who did such between races. Really did a number on the hoof, as expected.
I would think that regardless what comes out of this tragedy in the way of new regulations, technicians responsible for operating the chambers will have their own set of standards in place. I, for one, would refuse to be responsible for a shod horse in an HBO chamber in the wake of last week’s tragedy. I am a die-hard horse lover, but no horse is worth my life in the literal sense. There is no disease state in any animal so grave as to warrant risking human life and limb. The question posed by Guilherme, “Well, what if the horse is shod, really needs the shoe/shoes for whatever reason, and is also in dire need of HBOT?” Um, too bad for the horse, I’m afraid.
[QUOTE=JackieBlue;6146294]
“Well, what if the horse is shod, really needs the shoe/shoes for whatever reason, and is also in dire need of HBOT?” Um, too bad for the horse, I’m afraid.[/QUOTE]
After doing a little (imperfect) research, exactly.
That would be my thought as well
All this talk of shoes or no shoes is hindsight. If I were an owner looking to use this therapy for one of my racehorses in training, I would go by whatever the facility in charge of that technology recommended. If they told me it is common practice for them and the other facilities that use these chambers to wrap the feet well with vet-wrap/elasticon and to sedate the horse, then I would have gone along with that. That was my point - people were asking why the shoes were not pulled, so I noted that many of these horses are in active trainging and are using this therapy to improve performance or some relatively small issue, so removing shoes and re-nailing them is not a good option. Glue on shoes would also not be an option if the horse is racing.
That said, with this new tragedy I would expect to see much stricter guidelines and would abide by those. Human life is not worth the risk (nor is a horse’s life).
