KWPN Leads at the Olympics

[omare]

I would think the Hann. book should be most concerned at keeping its placings for dressage as they have a huge book which it would seem for the most part is bred --or siginificantly dedicated to dressage. (And is it surprising they are now 2nd in eventing?)

The KWPN can argue (whether one agrees) that its book tends to be split in focus between two disciplines dressage and jumping which is not so true for the SF and holsteiners.
(Of course another small book that is a jumper powerhouse is the BWP and they seem to have diversified =or matured-to the next generation=beyond just Darco blood.)

[vineyridge]

BWP and sBs.

[stolensilver]

Earlier on someone asked what the AES studbook was. It stands for Anglo European Studbook and has been in existence for about 20 years. It was started by Henk Minderhoud who has (had?) a showjumping stud in the UK.

At the 2008 Olympics the AES was represented by more approved stallions in showjumping than any other. This time round the studbook has done well again and it has been ranked in the top 10 WBFSH for showjumping for several years. Considering there are less than 500 foals a year born into this studbook that is an amazing achievement.

I think the secret of the AES’s success is their open doors policy. If a stallion has performed at international levels then his offspring can be registered with the AES and get full approval. The stallion owner doesn’t have to present the stallion at a grading. They have a similar sort of policy for mares. If a mare has been graded into another WBFSH recognised studbook then she can automatically have her offspring accepted into the AES studbook.

Which means breeders can choose any good mare and any good stallion they wish from anywhere in the world and get full AES papers for their foals. Truly a case of putting the best mares to the best stallions.

The AES also allows bloodlines that are squeezed out of other sports horse registries such as the Irish Draughts and the Cleveland Bays to get into a major studbook. My own ID x TB mare is graded with the SHBGB and so her offspring can be registered with the AES. But she would also have qualified for the AES based on her own performance record.

I’ve never understood why the old tried and tested UK bloodlines are so ignored by most of the warmblood/sport horse registries. They have produced top class athletes for decades. Cruising is part bred Irish Draught and an international show jumper. Pembridge Minstrel is half Cleveland Bay and a 3*** eventer. Spring Pascal is a GP dressage horse, on the young riders team and he is half Cleveland Bay. Lenamore is the most successful event horse in history and he is half Irish Draught. To me keeping these bloodlines out of a studbook makes no sense. Thank goodness the AES see it the same way.

[RyTimMick]

@omare;6571044

I would think the Hann. book should be most concerned at keeping its placings for dressage as they have a huge book which it would seem for the most part is bred --or siginificantly dedicated to dressage. (And is it surprising they are now 2nd in eventing?)

The KWPN can argue (whether one agrees) that its book tends to be split in focus between two disciplines dressage and jumping which is not so true for the SF and holsteiners.
(Of course another small book that is a jumper powerhouse is the BWP and they seem to have diversified =or matured-to the next generation=beyond just Darco blood.)

Omare,

Although the primary focus of most Holsteiner breeders is in fact for SJ, we have many upper level dressage horse, driving horses, and eventers. We don’t physcially split our book to recognize these different breeders, but we have them just the same.

Tim

[Bayhawk]

The KWPN “says” they have started to try and split up the disciplines but even this has been done recently and has little or no affect on todays rankings.

KWPN has many good horses… this is a fact , but when you have to breed 4 times as many horses and you still can’t achieve the same results as another book(s) …well , I personally don’t feel that their formula is working.

The arguement that people like to ride KWPN horses better than other books horses is just flat out wrong and is absolutely reflected in the studbook rankings.

[RyTimMick]

@stolensilver;6571070

Which means breeders can choose any good mare and any good stallion they wish from anywhere in the world and get full AES papers for their foals. Truly a case of putting the best mares to the best stallions.

Stolensilver,

I disagree with this sentiment. I don’t think this is their secret. Zanghersheide has done this for many years, and they are not the top. What I believe this breeding philosophy does it put you into rankings sooner, but forces you to keep buying your breeding stock from other studbooks. This breeding philosophy will never create its own breeding stock and be successful, because it garners no knowledge.

Tim

[Renascence]

What rank would Holstein drop to if they did not have the 2 top ranked Caretino sons showjumping? Unfortunately he is deceased.

The individual gold medal event horse is 1/4 Han, but is 3/4 tb and is registered in a completely different registry, by the way.

I rather like philosophy of Stolen Silver’s registry and the kind of horses it garners!

[omare]

I would not suggest to be valid the KWP needs to split the book–it is a reality that a certain percentage of their book is bred for the dressage ring–and they lead the hanno. right now in that area–who breeds a ton of mares that are dressage pedigreed.

In contrast what percentage (as a proxy) of the Holsteiner verband approved stallions in germany are dressage geared-2-5 percent?
I do not think this takes anything away from the Holsteiner book–they are an acknowledged powerhouse of jumping genes that the world borrows from-- but it does not seem to be accurate to suggest the KWPN is a failing stud book. (Just because the Holsteiner book can outproduce them does not mean they are failing–it just mean the holsteiner book is exceptional.)

I do find interesting that the Hannoverians are tucked in second behind the Irish for eventing-- is that by accident or design?

[vineyridge]

Accident. If full TB were a recognized studbook, they would come after the Irish. Given that the rankings are determined by adding the points from the best five breed representatives in each discipline, the Butts horses have an exceptional impact on the Hannoverian ranking in eventing. And they are up to 96% TB.

[Donella]

The KWPN “says” they have started to try and split up the disciplines but even this has been done recently and has little or no affect on todays rankings

Yes, and I am super curious as to how this is going to work for them in the future. I am doubtful to be honest.

I do find interesting that the Hannoverians are tucked in second behind the Irish for eventing-- is that by accident or design?

It isn’t by accident at all! That program is a Hanoverian breeding program aimed at producing top eventers. How is that an accident?

[bloomingtonfarm]

[QUOTE=Donella;6571776]
The KWPN “says” they have started to try and split up the disciplines but even this has been done recently and has little or no affect on todays rankings

Yes, and I am super curious as to how this is going to work for them in the future. I am doubtful to be honest.

---

Well the KWPN might have split up the disciplines just a few years ago but the reality is that breeders were already doing this for many, many years. The spliting just kind of officialized what was going on anyway and with 2 separate selections more accuracy can be directed toward what is sought after to produce excellent dressage or jumper horse. The ‘orange’ are not mixed anymore with the ‘apple’ for the selection process.

Now I can see how excited Bayhawk is about having the Holst being number one so far in 2012 as this is new to him ;)but don’t forget…the number one jumping studbook as accounted by the WBFSH in
2011
2010
2009
2008
2007
2006
2005
2004
was the KWPN. Yes, they have been leading the rank every single year…and we never know, 2012 is not officialy finished!

Anyway I am not arguing about the quality of the different top studbooks as the KWPN knows how to pick the best stallions from reputable studbook for their ongoing goal to stay at the top of the sport.

[omare]

If a dutch foal crop was split out based on rough proxy of “jumper” sires verse “dressage” sires what would that split be? (And Flipping the coin on dual purpose sires.)

Is the book breeding roughly 50/50? 30/70? Just curious.

I am assuming if you are breeding for more than one ring as part of your breed book focus-rather than being hypr-docued on one discipline-you are going to have ahigher percentage that land wide of the mark so to speak.

[vineyridge]

[QUOTE=Donella;6571776]
The KWPN “says” they have started to try and split up the disciplines but even this has been done recently and has little or no affect on todays rankings

Yes, and I am super curious as to how this is going to work for them in the future. I am doubtful to be honest.

I do find interesting that the Hannoverians are tucked in second behind the Irish for eventing-- is that by accident or design?

It isn’t by accident at all! That program is a Hanoverian breeding program aimed at producing top eventers. How is that an accident?[/QUOTE]

It’s an accident because two very good horses skew the rankings terribly. Herr Butt was one man breeding for eventing. He was one of the very best breeders in the world. But his production was very, very small; and it certainly wasn’t representative of the studbook as a whole. His goals seem to have been far different from the goals of both his studbook and the majority of breeders in it. Do you really think that any other breeders of Hanoverians use his sort of mares, the last of whose WB ancestors were in 1921 or the 1940’s?

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=bloomingtonfarm;6571842]

[QUOTE=Donella;6571776]The KWPN “says” they have started to try and split up the disciplines but even this has been done recently and has little or no affect on todays rankings

Yes, and I am super curious as to how this is going to work for them in the future. I am doubtful to be honest.

---

Well the KWPN might have split up the disciplines just a few years ago but the reality is that breeders were already doing this for many, many years. The spliting just kind of officialized what was going on anyway and with 2 separate selections more accuracy can be directed toward what is sought after to produce excellent dressage or jumper horse. The ‘orange’ are not mixed anymore with the ‘apple’ for the selection process.

Now I can see how excited Bayhawk is about having the Holst being number one so far in 2012 as this is new to him ;)but don’t forget…the number one jumping studbook as accounted by the WBFSH in
2011
2010
2009
2008
2007
2006
2005
2004
was the KWPN. Yes, they have been leading the rank every single year…and we never know, 2012 is not officialy finished!

Anyway I am not arguing about the quality of the different top studbooks as the KWPN knows how to pick the best stallions from reputable studbook for their ongoing goal to stay at the top of the sport.[/QUOTE]

And every one of these years you had our HOLSTEINER Cedric stealing points from the Holsteiner Verband. as soon as this wrong was righted , you fell out of the #1 spot.

It makes one wonder how many other horses you have been claiming that don’t belong to you ?

I will repeat it again…you breed 2-4 times as many horses as other studbooks and still you can’t be on top unless you are of course stealing someone else’s points.

[vineyridge]

Studbook rankings that are based on the performance of five horses with an iffy point assignment scheme are, IMO, basically worthless.

Now if the WBFSH used cumulative points for every registered horse showing in CSI5*, CDI 5*, and CCI 4*, then it might mean something. They could take the total number of horses in the registry and come up with an average point number. Highest number wins. But their scheme right now is completely absurd.

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=vineyridge;6572083]
Studbook rankings that are based on the performance of five horses with an iffy point assignment scheme are, IMO, basically worthless.

Now if the WBFSH used cumulative points for every registered horse showing in CSI5*, CDI 5*, and CCI 4*, then it might mean something. They could take the total number of horses in the registry and come up with an average point number. Highest number wins. But their scheme right now is completely absurd.[/QUOTE]

Again Viney…you have no idea what you are talking about. You obviously don’t understand the WBSFH.

[SamWerner]

Bayhwk-

I have to ask…why does it upset you so much to have people disagree with you or have a difference of opinion. If you truly and honestly believe something, then you don’t need to prove it to anyone. What is the point of pushing your ideals on others? That is what is great about the USA, we can all do and say as we please!

I just don’t understand why you argue with people. Everyone is going to stick up for their own breed, as they should since they are proud of the horses that come off their farms. Just relax! And I am saying this to be nice…I always see your posts and they seem so angry!

How about everyone just support one another in this harsh world we live in. Wouldn’t that be nice? And argue about something that really matters, like politics hehehe

[vineyridge]

Here is the WBFSH statement on their rankings.
http://www.wbfsh.org/files/WBFSH_ranking_statement_April_2011.pdf

They use 6 horses, not five. Oops!

But they do seem to award points for all horses who compete. While they give more points for higher levels and for bigger competitions, 6 top horses say nothing about overall quality. Herr Butt skewed the Hanoverians in eventing. If he could have such an impact with so few horses, what does that say about the whole process?

And we all know about point chasing. One of the top six in eventing for the Hanoverians is a horse who has never done anything higher than a 2* and the horse is 11. Another one is an 8 year old who has never done a CCI. This one has done some CIC3s. Best finish is 4th. For the Holsteiners, one of the horses they counted for eventing is R-Star, who has never placed at a 4.

They only look at FEI competitions. So two of Boyd Martin’s are used because he competes so much; and a whole bunch of the siblings by Fines and Berganza bring the CDE studbook to 5th in eventing.

The studbook rankings are just plain worthless.

BTW, the FEI database no longer lists the sire and dam. That’s a huge loss.

[feather_river]

[QUOTE=stolensilver;6571070]
Earlier on someone asked what the AES studbook was. It stands for Anglo European Studbook and has been in existence for about 20 years. It was started by Henk Minderhoud who has (had?) a showjumping stud in the UK.

At the 2008 Olympics the AES was represented by more approved stallions in showjumping than any other. This time round the studbook has done well again and it has been ranked in the top 10 WBFSH for showjumping for several years. Considering there are less than 500 foals a year born into this studbook that is an amazing achievement.

I think the secret of the AES’s success is their open doors policy. If a stallion has performed at international levels then his offspring can be registered with the AES and get full approval. The stallion owner doesn’t have to present the stallion at a grading. They have a similar sort of policy for mares. If a mare has been graded into another WBFSH recognised studbook then she can automatically have her offspring accepted into the AES studbook.

Which means breeders can choose any good mare and any good stallion they wish from anywhere in the world and get full AES papers for their foals. Truly a case of putting the best mares to the best stallions.

The AES also allows bloodlines that are squeezed out of other sports horse registries such as the Irish Draughts and the Cleveland Bays to get into a major studbook. My own ID x TB mare is graded with the SHBGB and so her offspring can be registered with the AES. But she would also have qualified for the AES based on her own performance record.

I’ve never understood why the old tried and tested UK bloodlines are so ignored by most of the warmblood/sport horse registries. They have produced top class athletes for decades. Cruising is part bred Irish Draught and an international show jumper. Pembridge Minstrel is half Cleveland Bay and a 3*** eventer. Spring Pascal is a GP dressage horse, on the young riders team and he is half Cleveland Bay. Lenamore is the most successful event horse in history and he is half Irish Draught. To me keeping these bloodlines out of a studbook makes no sense. Thank goodness the AES see it the same way.[/QUOTE]
what you neglect to also mention is that over the past 15 or so years, as the Euro became so expensive for everyone, the British pound has remained quite competitive so that prices of U.K. horses have been very attractive. This means a higher volume of sales of U.K. horses, and since they have a more open studbook (as do lots of other registries) the breeders in the U.K. have been breeding some really competitive international quality horses under the AES studbook. And you have to look into the background of these horses to find this older blood–everything on the top, so to speak looks just like they could be following the Dutch model.

[RyTimMick]

@omare;6571466

In contrast what percentage (as a proxy) of the Holsteiner verband approved stallions in Germany are dressage geared-2-5 percent?

Actually I just checked, 17.3% of the stallions standing at the HV are dressage stallions. Now, some as you say are used for both, but as was stated before, we don’t separate our book.

Tim