I would disagree. I think he knows a lot about it. He may not be concerned with many of the technical aspects of the equipment, but I believe he understands the results well. Likewise, I doubt that he personally takes any x-rays any more either, but I am sure he reads them.
Sorry, Dr. Keegan, that’s not what I meant to convey.
I meant that I was the one unfamiliar with it. Dr Allen is most assuredly familiar with it.
I’m blaming this silly iPad for my confusing post. At least the autocorrect didn’t turn it into complete gibberish. Of course, the day isn’t over yet.
JSwan:
I understand. Thanks for your comments. The horse industry’s strange attachment to “herbs and potions” also befuddles me sometimes. But, I guess this is not too out of the ordinary. Human medicine and the other veterinary disciplines seem to experiment with at worst, non-scientific, or anti-scientific treatments, and at least, treatments that have not been scientifically tested. I can assure you that I have reams of data attesting to the sensitivity of the inertial sensor system for detecting and evaluating lameness in horses. Some of it will coming out soon in peer-reviewed publications. We have conducted other experiments on horses with natural lameness, induced (temporary and mild) lameness, lunging, flexion tests, other gaits than the trot, others) that will unfortunately take more time than I would like to get out. This is just the nature of the peer-review publication business. We also have just received our 3rd National Science Foundation grant to continue research. National Science Foundations scientific reviewers are not going to award grants to a non-scientific approach to solving a problem. Detecting lameness in horses is a problem. I would be glad to answer anyone’s questions about the system either on this forum or off.
Keegan
It was in fact Dr. Schramme that completed my horses’ work up listed above. Dr. Keegan, thanks so much for chiming in, its been a pleasure to learn more about the instrument from the experts!! I think my horse is definately a success story of using the locator in conjunction with traditional verterinary expertise to arrive at a diagnosis…well if all continues to go well in rehab, he would be a success story! Being a scientist myself, tho a marine scientist is no close relation, I find this fascinating!!
I showed the link to that device to my equine surgeon friends and they about died laughing. They use their good old eye, and if they need to figure out the tiny minutiae of a lameness, they have a force plate for that.
A force plate requires you to go to the clinic…and they are not availble everywhere or as useful for very subtle and inconsistent lameness. This is portable and so the diagnosis was at my farm.
Again…it was helpful. It supported what my vet was already visually seeing and gave us a more quantifiable number for comparison. Especially given how mild the lameness was…many vets would have said he wasn’t consistently lame enough to block.
So it helped isolate the diagonsis at an early stage. When you are potentially dealing with a soft tissue injury…this can mean the difference between a full recovery or no recovery.
In my horse’s case…it was enough that with the clean x-rays…and clear change with the blocking of his foot…I went ahead and had a standing MRI done (since it was very possible we were dealing with a soft tissue injury in the early stage). Turns out the horse has a bone cyst in his pastern bone just above the coffin joint. This is likely the problem. It doesn’t show up on xrays…just the MRI. It is the kind of thing that would be nagging and hard to diagnose…and we may have treated it very different had I not gotten the MRI done with the firm diagonsis.
I do think the lameness dector was helpful in pinpointing the area of issue…and helpful in making my decision to go ahead to do the MRI (since we did isolate it to the foot).
ETA: Surgeons are also rarely any good at diagnosis of subtle lameness IME…and are often unrealistic in management of rehab as well as recovery/management of sport horses. They are surgeons…it is a different field of study.
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Any vet who just about dies laughing in the face of new technology with research backing it up, and prefers to use “good old” anything, would not be my vet for long. I don’t chase new fads, but I want a vet who stays current on new technology and information as it becomes available. Otherwise, why not keep using blistering and snake venom? Come on.
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“I showed the link to that device to my equine surgeon friends and they about died laughing. They use their good old eye, and if they need to figure out the tiny minutiae of a lameness, they have a force plate for that”
I will stay out of this one, except to say that this is not an uncommon first response to those who do not understand or have not heard what the system is, how it was developed, or how the analysis works.
The force plate is nice, very sensitive and accurate, except that it is very difficult to use and only one stride and one limb at a time can be analyzed. If the vets in question would like I could send them a head-to-head comparison of the inertial sensor system with a force plate. They correlate very well.
Morganpony, ask your surgeon friends if they know who Kent Allen is. He’s hardly one to use gimmicky stuff on his patients.
Ok so the stuff I directly quoted off the web site is not “marketing” and this instrument is going to magically make vets into competent diagnosticians.
Pardon me while I open a window and ventilate the room. :lol:
[QUOTE=Tiffani B;5428182]
Any vet who just about dies laughing in the face of new technology with research backing it up, and prefers to use “good old” anything, would not be my vet for long. I don’t chase new fads, but I want a vet who stays current on new technology and information as it becomes available. Otherwise, why not keep using blistering and snake venom? Come on. [/QUOTE]
Slow your roll. We just had a good laugh over it, mainly because of the name. That’s pretty much as far as we got. The “Lameness Locator”??? Really?? :lol::lol: I suppose any lameness question on the ACVS boards could be answered with “Well, I’d just break out my handy dandy lameness locator! Problem solved!!!”
And if something that high tech was needed for a lameness in one of my horses, I would be hauling to the nearest high-tech clinic/hospital with the best surgeons who have the training & array of diagnostic tools to recognize mild lamenesses.
The point of my post, and I’ll admit it was not clear at all (because I was still giggling over the name) was that IMO, these things are a way for some vets to use technology to promote laziness on their part. Before you get your panties in a bunch, I concede that I’m sure there are vets that will love it and will use it wisely and may help them locate lamenesses. But I LOFF my vets, all of them, and trust their eye to find lamenesses over any silly gadget; they’ve never done me wrong so far, and my boys have had some complicated cases. They all work at a high-tech hospital, and use the latest technologies. They just happen to prefer to use their eye and training with technology helping rather than rely only on technology. Some day that lameness locator is gonna be busted, and then you’re SOL, and you’re gonna wish you paid attention during your 4th year surgery rotation when the residents were teaching you how to identify lamenesses by watching hip and shoulder points.
This debate is constant in the medical field, both human and animal. Where do we draw the line? Should students even go to school anymore with all these gadgets that get them through the day? Hell, my SO, who is a DVM, has a handy dandy little electronic gadget that lists every drug, dosages, various species reactions, side effects, etc etc. Why’d he sit through pharmacology??? It’s all right there. And let me tell you, I’ve heard that complaint ALL. THE. TIME. from the DVM & MD students I have taught. “Why do we have to learn the basics about bloodwork??? A Hemavet does all the work for me!!! No muss, no fuss!!” What do I tell them?
[QUOTE=dbamford;5427565]
It was in fact Dr. Schramme that completed my horses’ work up listed above. Dr. Keegan, thanks so much for chiming in, its been a pleasure to learn more about the instrument from the experts!! I think my horse is definately a success story of using the locator in conjunction with traditional verterinary expertise to arrive at a diagnosis…well if all continues to go well in rehab, he would be a success story! Being a scientist myself, tho a marine scientist is no close relation, I find this fascinating!![/QUOTE]
I have to chime in too. About 2.5 years ago I owned a really nice young grey horse who was NQR. At the time my vets practice was testing out the lamness locater and one of the vets who helped bring it to “life” was here in NJ with the vets trying the machine. My vets asked if they could use it on my gelding, free of charge, to test it. We already knew what limb was involved but he was hardly “off” so we used it to confirm what we all SAW, but could not LOCATE. It worked great in regards to it confirmed what the eye saw.
I do not think anyone would rely soley on a machine to diagnose an NQR or I would not use them. It is not magic, but it sure did help us locate where the lamness was NOT and made the decision, like the above poster said, to have to go to the clinic for a nuclear scan.
It saved me time and money and got me right to the clinic. My horse had an OCD lesion in his shoulder, a really hard thing to find and I can thank the locater for confirming what eyes and flexing and blocking alone could not determine.
It was part of the process in diagnosing a difficult situation!
Rattle snake venom or cobra venom? There’s a difference, ya know. 
Piedmont Equine has one too.
I had left my horse overnight for a battery of tests because he was NQR. When I arrived the next day for the confab with the vets, there was Beckham on the trot strip with these funky things attached to his croup and ankle, and a beanie on his head!
After I stopped laughing at how silly he looked, the vets (all 5 of them who were standing around watching and discussing) explained the process and how and why they were using it on my horse. I think it was relatively new to them at the time, and they were mostly using it to confirm the diagnosis of some other tests, but it did bring to light some secondary lamenesses that weren’t immediately apparent. The whole process was quite interesting, and enlightening. Although I wasn’t charged for it on that go round, I wouldn’t hesitate to have it used (and pay for it) in the future in a similar situation.
I’m waiting for the spinoff thread to start now… “Where Can I Get Venom and What Kind Should I use?” :lol:
Herpetologist recommended, fresh squeezed, organic, neuro-tonic or hemo-tonic, 100% natural of course!
[QUOTE=morganpony86;5428667]
Slow your roll. We just had a good laugh over it, mainly because of the name. That’s pretty much as far as we got. The “Lameness Locator”??? Really?? :lol::lol: I suppose any lameness question on the ACVS boards could be answered with “Well, I’d just break out my handy dandy lameness locator! Problem solved!!!”
And if something that high tech was needed for a lameness in one of my horses, I would be hauling to the nearest high-tech clinic/hospital with the best surgeons who have the training & array of diagnostic tools to recognize mild lamenesses.
The point of my post, and I’ll admit it was not clear at all (because I was still giggling over the name) was that IMO, these things are a way for some vets to use technology to promote laziness on their part. Before you get your panties in a bunch, I concede that I’m sure there are vets that will love it and will use it wisely and may help them locate lamenesses. But I LOFF my vets, all of them, and trust their eye to find lamenesses over any silly gadget; they’ve never done me wrong so far, and my boys have had some complicated cases. They all work at a high-tech hospital, and use the latest technologies. They just happen to prefer to use their eye and training with technology helping rather than rely only on technology. Some day that lameness locator is gonna be busted, and then you’re SOL, and you’re gonna wish you paid attention during your 4th year surgery rotation when the residents were teaching you how to identify lamenesses by watching hip and shoulder points.
This debate is constant in the medical field, both human and animal. Where do we draw the line? Should students even go to school anymore with all these gadgets that get them through the day? Hell, my SO, who is a DVM, has a handy dandy little electronic gadget that lists every drug, dosages, various species reactions, side effects, etc etc. Why’d he sit through pharmacology??? It’s all right there. And let me tell you, I’ve heard that complaint ALL. THE. TIME. from the DVM & MD students I have taught. “Why do we have to learn the basics about bloodwork??? A Hemavet does all the work for me!!! No muss, no fuss!!” What do I tell them?[/QUOTE]
I appreciate, respect and take to heart your comments. Those who are using this equipment realize, as do all the developers, that this equipment is an aid, not a replacement. Thanks for the feedback on the name; we are actually planning to change it because of the confusion it can create. It seems that the name has caused some to infer that its users and developers claim that it does more than it does. For those interested I have made and posted a very short (2 minutes) youtube video, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_ZOO7tYoGw&feature=youtube_gdata, that describes what this equipment is and what it is not. Maybe the name does turn some off so they are inclined to think of it as gadget. The name Lameness Locator was proposed by a 4th year veterinary student (now equine practitioner using the equipment) several years back and it just hung around. If you were aware of the years of development and testing of this system, how its algorithms were developed, and how it actually works I am pretty confident that you would not think of it merely as a gadget. I also do not think that anyone using this equipment today, some of who are ACVS-trained surgeons, think about or use the equipment in a manner suggested by your post.
I also educate veterinary students and, yes, I agree they seem sometimes nowadays to rely too much on high tech and neglect understanding core principles. This is different. Use of this equipment in our lameness clinic has only enriched the veterinary students understanding of lameness evaluation, so they can be better even when they do not have it. We also use slow motion video and high speed camera-based kinematic gait analysis systems to teach lameness. When we can show to the students very specifically what to look for, they can apply it better in the clinical situation. In other words students learning this technology and current users do not need to know and understand less about lameness evaluation, they need to know and understand more. Some current users have expended much effort to learn how to use this equipment in an effective manner. Some who have seen or had a chance to use the equipment have indicated to me very frankly and fairly that it is too complicated and that in their current state of affairs they could not envision taking the extra time and effort to learn it properly. I do not think either is lazy. Very few, and there will always be a few, who have taken the time to study it and who have actually had their hands on it dismiss it as a gadget.
I have frequently been coached by other veterinarians, businessmen, and entrepreneurs that I need to make this a black box instrument, something that spits out red for lameness and green for soundness, something that requires little thought or effort to learn and I have resisted. I have resisted because lameness is complicated and it frequently takes experience, skill, time, and hard work to sort out. I have also resisted because anything like this would really be a worthless gadget. The equipment is easy to use and it can stream line a practitioner’s lameness evaluation because it takes out some guess work, but you have to work at learning the analysis.
Kevin Keegan DVM, MS
Diplomate ACVS
Professor: Equine Surgery
University of Missouri
Columbia, MO 65211
[QUOTE=eponacelt;5429673]
Piedmont Equine has one too.
I had left my horse overnight for a battery of tests because he was NQR. When I arrived the next day for the confab with the vets, there was Beckham on the trot strip with these funky things attached to his croup and ankle, and a beanie on his head!
After I stopped laughing at how silly he looked, the vets (all 5 of them who were standing around watching and discussing) explained the process and how and why they were using it on my horse. I think it was relatively new to them at the time, and they were mostly using it to confirm the diagnosis of some other tests, but it did bring to light some secondary lamenesses that weren’t immediately apparent. The whole process was quite interesting, and enlightening. Although I wasn’t charged for it on that go round, I wouldn’t hesitate to have it used (and pay for it) in the future in a similar situation.[/QUOTE]
Piedmont in one of 9 beta testers in the United States, one of the first to try out the technology. I have to hand it to them for sticking it out through the early going. Beta testing is not a piece of cake. There were many quirks and difficulties using the equipment that our beta testers had to suffer through.
The core methodology of “analysis” is about eliminating “guess work.”
I whole heartedly agree that most practitioners require significant remediation in this area before being handed “smart tools.”
How does this system work on gaited horses? I have a Missouri Foxtrotter whose “head shake” is a natural part of their gait. Is this system designed to take into account a foxtrot gait which is a 4 beat broken diagonal gait, or will that, in addition to the “headshake”, create a really screwy reading? Just wondering - my vet, at Conejo Valley in California, uses this system and I was curious if it would work on the gaited breeds…
